texi2html web page, second attempt

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texi2html web page, second attempt

Graham Percival-3
To counter-act the "texi2html looks boring" idea, here's a new
version:
http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html

1) *NO*, I don't think the garish colours and backgrounds look
good.  I'm showing that we can do whatever we want, not proposing
that red-text-on-black-image is easy to read!

I'm probably the worst graphics designer on this list, so I'm not
even going to *pretend* to be a graphics designer.  If we end up
going this route, then OF COURSE we'll ask those people to produce
a beautiful css file.


2)  Apologies to people who worked on the perl texinfo init file
for the docs.  I hacked it up horribly to get this version.
- also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do
  it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :)  needs to make
  the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second
  list.  (like the current webpage)

- we also probably want to remove the <h1>section-name</h1> from
  the page.  Not a big deal.


3)  Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much?
- makes pdfs+info.  I personally *never* use those formats, but I
  know that some people still use them.  IMO, if we're going to
  support those formats for the manuals, we should support them
  for the information that's on the website.

- we all know texinfo.  It's easy to fix small mistakes in it.  If
  we go this route, I can have the content of the new website done
  by the end of this weekend.  Then we just need to adjust the
  style (tweak the init file, write a CSS, maybe make new images,
  etc).  Oh, and adjusting the translation stuff[*].

Yes, I know that texinfo is confusing for beginners -- by "we all
know", I mean "all the major lilypond contributors".  In other
words, "all the people who might be fixing typos and incorrect
content on the website".


[*]  For this reason -- and this reason only -- I don't think we
should aim to have the new website ready by 2.14.  Tentative plan
is to release 2.14 in early July, then work on the translation
infrastructure for the texinfo website, then release the new
website in early Aug.


- texinfo enforces the "content vs. presentation" thing.  All our
  webpages will have a consistent look; it's not *possible* to
  do weird hacks in texinfo to create odd stuff for individual
  pages.  (at least, not without modifying the global css file as
  well)

- I think it would be cool.  Everybody "knows" that texinfo is
  boring and bland; I think it would be really neat to have a
  fancy website created from texinfo.  It could also serve as a
  great example for other projects as to the possibilities of
  texi2html.  I think we all agree that it's been great for our
  manuals, after all!

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Francisco Vila
2009/6/13 Graham Percival <[hidden email]>:
> To counter-act the "texi2html looks boring" idea, here's a new
> version:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html

You haven't asked for comments but here they are anyway:

-- The garish colours and backgrounds look bad.
-- Red-text-on-black-image is very difficult to read.
-- Please don't pretend to be a graphics designer. You'd better ask
designers to produce a decent css file.

That said, looks promising, go ahead.
--
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

pnorcks
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Graham
Percival<[hidden email]> wrote:
> To counter-act the "texi2html looks boring" idea, here's a new
> version:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html

Cool!  I think this is a definite improvement to the website's
organization.  I really wish we could port everything to XHTML, since
it makes designing a little easier, but I guess we will have to use
HTML 4.0 Transitional.

> 1) *NO*, I don't think the garish colours and backgrounds look
> good.  I'm showing that we can do whatever we want, not proposing
> that red-text-on-black-image is easy to read!
>
> I'm probably the worst graphics designer on this list, so I'm not
> even going to *pretend* to be a graphics designer.  If we end up
> going this route, then OF COURSE we'll ask those people to produce
> a beautiful css file.

I would be willing to work on the CSS when everything is ready.  There
are some major annoyances that texi2html has (like using <table
class="menu" ...> instead of something more reasonable like <div
class="menu">), but these issues can be worked around.

> - we also probably want to remove the <h1>section-name</h1> from
>  the page.  Not a big deal.

Or we could just hide it.  I'm already hiding "The music typesetter"
on this page, because I could not think of a good place to put it:

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/user/lilypond/index

> - texinfo enforces the "content vs. presentation" thing.  All our
>  webpages will have a consistent look; it's not *possible* to
>  do weird hacks in texinfo to create odd stuff for individual
>  pages.  (at least, not without modifying the global css file as
>  well)

If there is a way to change the "class" or "id" for tags on individual
pages, then we could use the same global CSS file.

> - I think it would be cool.  Everybody "knows" that texinfo is
>  boring and bland; I think it would be really neat to have a
>  fancy website created from texinfo.  It could also serve as a
>  great example for other projects as to the possibilities of
>  texi2html.  I think we all agree that it's been great for our
>  manuals, after all!

I agree.  Thanks for working on this!

-Patrick


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Jonathan Kulp-2
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
Graham Percival wrote:

> 3)  Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much?
> - makes pdfs+info.  I personally *never* use those formats, but I
>   know that some people still use them.  IMO, if we're going to
>   support those formats for the manuals, we should support them
>   for the information that's on the website.

For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first
when I need to find something.

>
> - we all know texinfo.  It's easy to fix small mistakes in it.  If
>   we go this route, I can have the content of the new website done
>   by the end of this weekend.  Then we just need to adjust the
>   style (tweak the init file, write a CSS, maybe make new images,
>   etc).  Oh, and adjusting the translation stuff[*].
>
> Yes, I know that texinfo is confusing for beginners -- by "we all
> know", I mean "all the major lilypond contributors".  In other
> words, "all the people who might be fixing typos and incorrect
> content on the website".
>

I like this idea Graham, although I think I'd give you a run for
your money in the "worst designer on the list" contest. :)  As a
"small fix" guy, it would definitely be easier for me to deal with
texinfo files than with html.  As weird as texinfo is, I find it
much more human-readable than html source.  I like the flexibility
of its output, too.

Jon
--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Paul Scott-3
Jonathan Kulp wrote:

> Graham Percival wrote:
>
>> 3)  Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much?
>> - makes pdfs+info.  I personally *never* use those formats, but I
>>   know that some people still use them.  IMO, if we're going to
>>   support those formats for the manuals, we should support them
>>   for the information that's on the website.
>
> For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first when I
> need to find something.

Just for balance I always go to the HTML manual.

Paul Scott





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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Kieren MacMillan
Hi all,

>>> 3)  Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much?
>>> - makes pdfs+info.  I personally *never* use those formats, but I
>>>   know that some people still use them.  IMO, if we're going to
>>>   support those formats for the manuals, we should support them
>>>   for the information that's on the website.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first  
>> when I need to find something.
>
> Just for balance I always go to the HTML manual.

1. Since I'm offline more than 50% of the time I'm engraving, I use  
the PDF manual.

2. I prefer the PDF interface, especially for searching. [And, yes, I  
know how to Google the docs.] Perhaps when the AJAX searching  
features are built-in to the HTML docs, this difference will be  
eliminated?

Just my 2¢.
Kieren.

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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Cameron Horsburgh
In reply to this post by Paul Scott-3
And for completeness, I'm the guy who uses info!

--

Cameron Horsburgh

Blog: http://spiritcry.wordpress.com/


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Anthony W. Youngman
In reply to this post by Jonathan Kulp-2
In message <[hidden email]>, Jonathan Kulp
<[hidden email]> writes

>Graham Percival wrote:
>
>> 3)  Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much?
>> - makes pdfs+info.  I personally *never* use those formats, but I
>>   know that some people still use them.  IMO, if we're going to
>>   support those formats for the manuals, we should support them
>>   for the information that's on the website.
>
>For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first when I
>need to find something.

Ditto. In fact, I actively *dislike* html help - I can never find what
I'm looking for because a search never finds it, and I can't just scan
the "document" from top to bottom.

(At least, I can, if like lily you provide an "all in one page" option,
but in that case I might as well have the pdf, anyways :-)

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman - [hidden email]



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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

John Mandereau-2
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit :
> To counter-act the "texi2html looks boring" idea, here's a new
> version:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html

You made the proof of concept of using texi2html to write a website in
Texinfo; this is nice and promising, I'm now almost convinced that we
could adopt this technical design.  However, I'm sure I want to update
the translation infrastructure first, as it will be reused in the
website if we adopt this design: remember that it's about translating
node names and section titles directly in the translated files, so it
would well take between 10 and 15 hours to hack the scripts and apply
and check the changes to existing translations.


> 2)  Apologies to people who worked on the perl texinfo init file
> for the docs.  I hacked it up horribly to get this version.  

You could thank them too :-D


> - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do
>   it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :)  needs to make
>   the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second
>   list.  (like the current webpage)
>  

This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It
would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by
mouse hover/click BTW.


> - we also probably want to remove the <h1>section-name</h1> from
>   the page.  Not a big deal.

... or using the node names for links (cross-references) and menus, and
reuse current web site <h1> title as the section name in Texinfo sources
so we still have the same <h1> on the final HTML page.



> 3)  Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much?
> - makes pdfs+info.  I personally *never* use those formats, but I
>   know that some people still use them.  IMO, if we're going to
>   support those formats for the manuals, we should support them
>   for the information that's on the website.
>  

I'm not so enthusiast for a single huge PDF that contains so much
heterogenous kinds of information. Anyway, that's not a big deal, as
it's possible to have several master Texinfo files, with each being used
to produce one PDF document. Of course, HTML output has a much higher
priority.


> - we all know texinfo.  It's easy to fix small mistakes in it.  If
>   we go this route, I can have the content of the new website done
>   by the end of this weekend.  Then we just need to adjust the
>   style (tweak the init file, write a CSS, maybe make new images,
>   etc).  Oh, and adjusting the translation stuff[*].

If I may add an advantage of Texinfo over HTML, it is more concise and
faster to type.

Happy Texinfo/Perl/HTML hacking,
John



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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

pnorcks
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:

> Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit :
>
> > - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do
> >   it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :)  needs to make
> >   the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second
> >   list.  (like the current webpage)
> >  
>
> This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It
> would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by
> mouse hover/click BTW.

I agree.

For this to happen, we would need to have *one* unordered list instead
of two separate lists.  I'm referring to the one in div#tocframe.
They would look like this:

* unnumbered
  * unnumberedsec
  * unnumberedsec
    * unnumberedsubsec
* unnumbered
* unnumbered
* unnumbered

I could create drop-down menus with this structure (with pure CSS),
but I don't know how much modification the init file would need.


Thanks,
Patrick


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Graham Percival-3
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 09:57:20AM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
> > Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit :
> >
> > > - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do
> > >   it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :)  needs to make
> > >   the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second
> > >   list.  (like the current webpage)
> >
> > This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It
> > would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by
> > mouse hover/click BTW.
>
> I agree.
Really?  I prefer the current webpage's display, since you can see
all the sub-sections of each section.  (or all the sections of
each "chapter")

I mean, if somebody is reading Introduction->Features, I think
it'd be nice to see Introduction->Examples and Introduction->Crash
course, without having to hover the mouse around.

> For this to happen, we would need to have *one* unordered list instead
> of two separate lists.  I'm referring to the one in div#tocframe.
> They would look like this:
>
> * unnumbered
>   * unnumberedsec
>   * unnumberedsec
>     * unnumberedsubsec
> * unnumbered
> * unnumbered
> * unnumbered
>
> I could create drop-down menus with this structure (with pure CSS),
> but I don't know how much modification the init file would need.
That was actually the default for the init file -- it took me
about an hour to figure out how to hack-comment-out lines so it
wouldn't do this!  :)

I could change it back for an experiment, though.  If I see it in
action, I might like it better... or I may be outvoted :)
In any case, it would be easy to compare between the
current-webpage version and the drop-down version.


... ok, experiment pushed to web-gop.  Go ahead and do your magic
to web-gop/texinfo/css/ anytime.  :)

... nope, can't do.  Whenever I try to commit it, I get:
gperciva@nagi:~/svn/web-gop$ git commit texinfo/web-texi2html.init
error: invalid object d92e8d14ac7c92171da2feb403f85eee6cade51a
error: Error building trees


Mao.  I'll delete the whole dir and download everything from the
main repo again, then add the file.  In the meantime, I've
attached the diff; you can apply it to your local copy and go from
there.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

pnorcks
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Graham
Percival<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 09:57:20AM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
>> > Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit :
>> >
>> > > - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do
>> > >   it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :)  needs to make
>> > >   the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second
>> > >   list.  (like the current webpage)
>> >
>> > This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It
>> > would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by
>> > mouse hover/click BTW.
>>
>> I agree.
>
> Really?  I prefer the current webpage's display, since you can see
> all the sub-sections of each section.  (or all the sections of
> each "chapter")
>
> I mean, if somebody is reading Introduction->Features, I think
> it'd be nice to see Introduction->Examples and Introduction->Crash
> course, without having to hover the mouse around.

Well, I was mainly interested in it because I know how to do drop-down
menus.  But on second thought, the method does not work on IE (<=6),
so this will be more trouble than it's worth.


>> For this to happen, we would need to have *one* unordered list instead
>> of two separate lists.  I'm referring to the one in div#tocframe.
>> They would look like this:
>>
>> * unnumbered
>>   * unnumberedsec
>>   * unnumberedsec
>>     * unnumberedsubsec
>> * unnumbered
>> * unnumbered
>> * unnumbered
>>
>> I could create drop-down menus with this structure (with pure CSS),
>> but I don't know how much modification the init file would need.
>
> That was actually the default for the init file -- it took me
> about an hour to figure out how to hack-comment-out lines so it
> wouldn't do this!  :)

Okay, thanks for the patch.

I started from scratch on the CSS.  There might be some things I
forgot, but see what you think.  If this is an improvement (for now),
I can send a patch.  It should render decently.  Not sure if the
submenus will work in IE<=6, but you probably don't use those
browsers.  :-)

http://uoregon.edu/~pmccarty/web-lily/lilypond-general_1.html


-Patrick


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Carl Sorensen-3
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3



On 6/20/09 2:21 PM, "Graham Percival" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 09:57:20AM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
>>> Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit :
>>>
>>>> - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do
>>>>   it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :)  needs to make
>>>>   the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second
>>>>   list.  (like the current webpage)
>>>
>>> This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It
>>> would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by
>>> mouse hover/click BTW.
>>
>> I agree.
>
> Really?  I prefer the current webpage's display, since you can see
> all the sub-sections of each section.  (or all the sections of
> each "chapter")
>
> I mean, if somebody is reading Introduction->Features, I think
> it'd be nice to see Introduction->Examples and Introduction->Crash
> course, without having to hover the mouse around.

Me, too.  I much prefer having the TOC available to having it hidden.


Carl



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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Graham Percival-3
In reply to this post by pnorcks
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 03:59:59PM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Graham
> Percival<[hidden email]> wrote:
> > That was actually the default for the init file -- it took me
> > about an hour to figure out how to hack-comment-out lines so it
> > wouldn't do this!  :)
>
> I started from scratch on the CSS.  There might be some things I
> forgot, but see what you think.  If this is an improvement (for now),
> I can send a patch.  It should render decently.  Not sure if the
> submenus will work in IE<=6, but you probably don't use those
> browsers.  :-)
>
> http://uoregon.edu/~pmccarty/web-lily/lilypond-general_1.html

Looks great!  I copied the CSS verbatim and dumped it into git; if
you have access you can push further changes directly.  If not,
I'm more than happy to commit them for you.

Ok, I'm thinking about announcing this on -user on Monday or
Tuesday.  There's a bit more I want to write for the content, and
if you want to make any more CSS changes, that's fine.  The idea
is just to get initial feedback and any major feature requests, so
it doesn't need to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
:)

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Graham Percival-3
In reply to this post by pnorcks
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:00:21PM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Graham
> Percival<[hidden email]> wrote:
> > To counter-act the "texi2html looks boring" idea, here's a new
> > version:
> > http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>
> Cool!  I think this is a definite improvement to the website's
> organization.  I really wish we could port everything to XHTML, since
> it makes designing a little easier, but I guess we will have to use
> HTML 4.0 Transitional.

Well, we _could_ make it XHTML by hacking texi2html... but I think
the current HTML version is fine.  I'll just note in passing that
this one more advantage to using texinfo as an intermediate
language: we can export it to whatever backend(s) we want,
assuming we're willing to write those backend(s).  :)

> I would be willing to work on the CSS when everything is ready.  There
> are some major annoyances that texi2html has (like using <table
> class="menu" ...> instead of something more reasonable like <div
> class="menu">), but these issues can be worked around.

That's (relatively) easily changed (actually I changed it already
for the TOC in the init file).  If there's any particular
annoyances, let me know and I'll look through the init file and/or
the texi2html source.

> > - we also probably want to remove the <h1>section-name</h1> from
> >  the page.  Not a big deal.
>
> Or we could just hide it.  I'm already hiding "The music typesetter"
> on this page, because I could not think of a good place to put it:

Up to you, as the graphics designer.  :)

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt

Graham Percival-3
In reply to this post by John Mandereau-2
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:

> Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit :
> > To counter-act the "texi2html looks boring" idea, here's a new
> > version:
> > http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>
> You made the proof of concept of using texi2html to write a website in
> Texinfo; this is nice and promising, I'm now almost convinced that we
> could adopt this technical design.  However, I'm sure I want to update
> the translation infrastructure first, as it will be reused in the
> website if we adopt this design: remember that it's about translating
> node names and section titles directly in the translated files, so it
> would well take between 10 and 15 hours to hack the scripts and apply
> and check the changes to existing translations.

Ok; I have no problems waiting for this.  Remember I was talking
about having the English version done this month, and translations
around Aug.

There should be a lot of shared infrastructure between the new
website and the main docs... actually, since they're all texinfo,
I'm not certain if there'd be *any* difference.

> > 2)  Apologies to people who worked on the perl texinfo init file
> > for the docs.  I hacked it up horribly to get this version.  
>
> You could thank them too :-D

I think I thanked them when they did the original version during
GDP.  And we wouldn't want to double-thank people, after all!

Cheers,
- Graham


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