relative pitch with song sections

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relative pitch with song sections

Carlo Vanoni
Hi everyone,

I'm transcribing a song that is, as usual, versex2-chorus-verse-chorus. Instead of copying all the notes of the verse/chorus section, I've created the verse-chorus sections so than I can just add \verse \chorus in the main score to print it.
I need to display both the score and the tabs. I noticed that I have to set different relative pitches for the two notations, otherwise there is an octave difference in the two (maybe I'm messing up something... Check the example), so I need to state the relative pitch in the \new Staff - \new TabStaff sections.
The problem is that, since I state the relative pitch there, I can't set the pitch of the song sections, so I don't know how to let the first note of the section to start always at a given pitch.

Enough talking.
Here is a simple example:
--------------------------------------------
\version "2.18.0"

verse =
{
    a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
}

chorus =
{
    a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
}

song =
{
    \repeat volta 2
    {
        \verse
    }
    \chorus
    \verse
    \chorus
    \bar "|."
}

bass = {
    <<
    \new Staff \with {
        \clef bass
        \omit Voice.StringNumber
    }
    {
        \relative c,
        \song
    }
   
    \new TabStaff \with {
        \clef moderntab
        stringTunings = #bass-tuning
    }
    {     
        \relative c,,   % tabs relative to a lower octave!
        \song
    }
    \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
    >>
}

\score {   
  \bass
}
--------------------------------------------

What I want is that each section starts from the same note (a' relative to c,). What happens is that each section will be relative to the previous section last note, so everything start to jump up an octave.
This can probably be corrected setting the relative in the section itself (verse/chorus). But then the Score and TabScore will display different octaves.

What am I missing?

Thanks!





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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Francisco Vila

Using relative per variable at the moment of their definition is robust pitchwise.
Sorry for top posting

El 12/05/2014 10:48, "Carlo Vanoni" <[hidden email]> escribió:
Hi everyone,

I'm transcribing a song that is, as usual, versex2-chorus-verse-chorus. Instead of copying all the notes of the verse/chorus section, I've created the verse-chorus sections so than I can just add \verse \chorus in the main score to print it.
I need to display both the score and the tabs. I noticed that I have to set different relative pitches for the two notations, otherwise there is an octave difference in the two (maybe I'm messing up something... Check the example), so I need to state the relative pitch in the \new Staff - \new TabStaff sections.
The problem is that, since I state the relative pitch there, I can't set the pitch of the song sections, so I don't know how to let the first note of the section to start always at a given pitch.

Enough talking.
Here is a simple example:
--------------------------------------------
\version "2.18.0"

verse =
{
    a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
}

chorus =
{
    a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
}

song =
{
    \repeat volta 2
    {
        \verse
    }
    \chorus
    \verse
    \chorus
    \bar "|."
}

bass = {
    <<
    \new Staff \with {
        \clef bass
        \omit Voice.StringNumber
    }
    {
        \relative c,
        \song
    }
   
    \new TabStaff \with {
        \clef moderntab
        stringTunings = #bass-tuning
    }
    {     
        \relative c,,   % tabs relative to a lower octave!
        \song
    }
    \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
    >>
}

\score {   
  \bass
}
--------------------------------------------

What I want is that each section starts from the same note (a' relative to c,). What happens is that each section will be relative to the previous section last note, so everything start to jump up an octave.
This can probably be corrected setting the relative in the section itself (verse/chorus). But then the Score and TabScore will display different octaves.

What am I missing?

Thanks!





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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Carlo Vanoni
Hi Francisco,

thanks for the reply.
But... I didn't understand it very well...
Did you mean to do something like this?
--------------------------------------------
verse =
{
    \relative c,
    {
        a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
    }
}

chorus =
{
    \relative c,
    {

        a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
    }
}
--------------------------------------------

As said, this set all verse/note to the correct pitch, but the tabs pitch will be wrong (the \relative definition in the TabScore section will be ignored).

Il Lunedì 12 Maggio 2014 11:16, Francisco Vila <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
Using relative per variable at the moment of their definition is robust pitchwise.
Sorry for top posting
El 12/05/2014 10:48, "Carlo Vanoni" <[hidden email]> escribió:
Hi everyone,

I'm transcribing a song that is, as usual, versex2-chorus-verse-chorus. Instead of copying all the notes of the verse/chorus section, I've created the verse-chorus sections so than I can just add \verse \chorus in the main score to print it.
I need to display both the score and the tabs. I noticed that I have to set different relative pitches for the two notations, otherwise there is an octave difference in the two (maybe I'm messing up something... Check the example), so I need to state the relative pitch in the \new Staff - \new TabStaff sections.
The problem is that, since I state the relative pitch there, I can't set the pitch of the song sections, so I don't know how to let the first note of the section to start always at a given pitch.

Enough talking.
Here is a simple example:
--------------------------------------------
\version "2.18.0"

verse =
{
    a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
}

chorus =
{
    a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
}

song =
{
    \repeat volta 2
    {
        \verse
    }
    \chorus
    \verse
    \chorus
    \bar "|."
}

bass = {
    <<
    \new Staff \with {
        \clef bass
        \omit Voice.StringNumber
    }
    {
        \relative c,
        \song
    }
   
    \new TabStaff \with {
        \clef moderntab
        stringTunings = #bass-tuning
    }
    {     
        \relative c,,   % tabs relative to a lower octave!
        \song
    }
    \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
    >>
}

\score {   
  \bass
}
--------------------------------------------

What I want is that each section starts from the same note (a' relative to c,). What happens is that each section will be relative to the previous section last note, so everything start to jump up an octave.
This can probably be corrected setting the relative in the section itself (verse/chorus). But then the Score and TabScore will display different octaves.

What am I missing?

Thanks!





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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Francisco Vila


El 12/05/2014 11:42, "Carlo Vanoni" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> Hi Francisco,
>
> thanks for the reply.
> But... I didn't understand it very well...
> Did you mean to do something like this?
> --------------------------------------------
> verse =
> {

Yes.  This brace is not needed.

>     \relative c,
>     {
>         a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
>     }
> }

Neither this is.

>
> chorus =
> {
>     \relative c,
>     {
>
>         a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
>     }
> }
> --------------------------------------------
>
> As said, this set all verse/note to the correct pitch, but the tabs pitch will be wrong (the \relative definition in the TabScore section will be ignored).

Use relative to define the correct pitches in music variables and nowhere else. Do not nest relative  statements.

>
> Il Lunedì 12 Maggio 2014 11:16, Francisco Vila <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> Using relative per variable at the moment of their definition is robust pitchwise.
> Sorry for top posting
> El 12/05/2014 10:48, "Carlo Vanoni" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I'm transcribing a song that is, as usual, versex2-chorus-verse-chorus. Instead of copying all the notes of the verse/chorus section, I've created the verse-chorus sections so than I can just add \verse \chorus in the main score to print it.
>> I need to display both the score and the tabs. I noticed that I have to set different relative pitches for the two notations, otherwise there is an octave difference in the two (maybe I'm messing up something... Check the example), so I need to state the relative pitch in the \new Staff - \new TabStaff sections.
>> The problem is that, since I state the relative pitch there, I can't set the pitch of the song sections, so I don't know how to let the first note of the section to start always at a given pitch.
>>
>> Enough talking.
>> Here is a simple example:
>> --------------------------------------------
>> \version "2.18.0"
>>
>> verse =
>> {
>>     a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
>> }
>>
>> chorus =
>> {
>>     a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
>> }
>>
>> song =
>> {
>>     \repeat volta 2
>>     {
>>         \verse
>>     }
>>     \chorus
>>     \verse
>>     \chorus
>>     \bar "|."
>> }
>>
>> bass = {
>>     <<
>>     \new Staff \with {
>>         \clef bass
>>         \omit Voice.StringNumber
>>     }
>>     {
>>         \relative c,
>>         \song
>>     }
>>    
>>     \new TabStaff \with {
>>         \clef moderntab
>>         stringTunings = #bass-tuning
>>     }
>>     {     
>>         \relative c,,   % tabs relative to a lower octave!
>>         \song
>>     }
>>     \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
>>     >>
>> }
>>
>> \score {   
>>   \bass
>> }
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> What I want is that each section starts from the same note (a' relative to c,). What happens is that each section will be relative to the previous section last note, so everything start to jump up an octave.
>> This can probably be corrected setting the relative in the section itself (verse/chorus). But then the Score and TabScore will display different octaves.
>>
>> What am I missing?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>>
>
>


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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Schneidy
In reply to this post by Carlo Vanoni
2014-05-12 11:42 GMT+02:00 Carlo Vanoni <[hidden email]>:
 
As said, this set all verse/note to the correct pitch, but the tabs pitch will be wrong (the \relative definition in the TabScore section will be ignored).
 
Hi Carlo,
If you want to have the right pitch you have to put the right clef in the staff (\clef "bass_8").
Now if that causes you problem, why are you coding in a relative mode ?
You can do something like :

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\version "2.18.0"

verse = {

  a4 b c' a | a b c' a | \break

}

chorus = {

  a4 b c' d' | d' e' f' g' | \break

}

song = {

   \repeat volta 2 { \verse }

   \chorus

   \verse

   \chorus

   \bar "|."

}


bass = \transpose c c,, {

<<

  \new Staff

   \with {

     \clef "bass_8"

      \omit Voice.StringNumber

   }

   {

      \song

    }

  \new TabStaff

    \with {

       \clef moderntab

       stringTunings = #bass-tuning

     }

     {

       \song

     }

     \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"

   >>

  }

  \score {

    \bass

}

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%



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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Carlo Vanoni
Uh, "bass_8"... that's a news.
I still use the relative to prevent some ' and , from the code. Since I also have (in the real code) also fingering and sting numbers, it will become a real mess otherwise.
Here is the now working code:
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\version "2.18.0"

verse =
\relative c,,
{
    a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
}

chorus =
\relative c,,
{
    a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
}

song =
{
    \repeat volta 2
    {
        \verse
    }
    \chorus
    \verse
    \chorus
    \bar "|."
}

bass =  {
    <<
    \new Staff \with {
        \clef "bass_8"
        \omit Voice.StringNumber
    }
    {
        \song
    }
   
    \new TabStaff \with {
        \clef moderntab
        stringTunings = #bass-tuning
    }
    {     
        \song
    }
    \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
    >>
}

\score {   
  \bass
}
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Since to avoid all ' and , I have to still declare "\relative c" in the two sections to use traspose, I preferred to use the "\relative c,," and remove the score transpose.

Thanks guys!

Il Lunedì 12 Maggio 2014 11:56, Pierre Perol-Schneider <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
2014-05-12 11:42 GMT+02:00 Carlo Vanoni <[hidden email]>:
 
As said, this set all verse/note to the correct pitch, but the tabs pitch will be wrong (the \relative definition in the TabScore section will be ignored).
 
Hi Carlo,
If you want to have the right pitch you have to put the right clef in the staff (\clef "bass_8").
Now if that causes you problem, why are you coding in a relative mode ?
You can do something like :

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\version "2.18.0"

verse = {
  a4 b c' a | a b c' a | \break
}
chorus = {
  a4 b c' d' | d' e' f' g' | \break
}
song = {
   \repeat volta 2 { \verse }
   \chorus
   \verse
   \chorus
   \bar "|."
}

bass = \transpose c c,, {
<<
  \new Staff
   \with {
     \clef "bass_8"
      \omit Voice.StringNumber
   }
   {
      \song
    }
  \new TabStaff
    \with {
       \clef moderntab
       stringTunings = #bass-tuning
     }
     {
       \song
     }
     \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
   >>
  }
  \score {
    \bass
}
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%




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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Carlo Vanoni
I just noticed that using \clef "bass_8" will print a small "8" under the clef. Not nice.
How to get rid of it?
Il Lunedì 12 Maggio 2014 12:51, Carlo Vanoni <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
Uh, "bass_8"... that's a news.
I still use the relative to prevent some ' and , from the code. Since I also have (in the real code) also fingering and sting numbers, it will become a real mess otherwise.
Here is the now working code:
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\version "2.18.0"

verse =
\relative c,,
{
    a'4 b c a | a b c a | \break
}

chorus =
\relative c,,
{
    a'4 b c d | d e f g | \break
}

song =
{
    \repeat volta 2
    {
        \verse
    }
    \chorus
    \verse
    \chorus
    \bar "|."
}

bass =  {
    <<
    \new Staff \with {
        \clef "bass_8"
        \omit Voice.StringNumber
    }
    {
        \song
    }
   
    \new TabStaff \with {
        \clef moderntab
        stringTunings = #bass-tuning
    }
    {     
        \song
    }
    \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
    >>
}

\score {   
  \bass
}
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Since to avoid all ' and , I have to still declare "\relative c" in the two sections to use traspose, I preferred to use the "\relative c,," and remove the score transpose.

Thanks guys!

Il Lunedì 12 Maggio 2014 11:56, Pierre Perol-Schneider <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
2014-05-12 11:42 GMT+02:00 Carlo Vanoni <[hidden email]>:
 
As said, this set all verse/note to the correct pitch, but the tabs pitch will be wrong (the \relative definition in the TabScore section will be ignored).
 
Hi Carlo,
If you want to have the right pitch you have to put the right clef in the staff (\clef "bass_8").
Now if that causes you problem, why are you coding in a relative mode ?
You can do something like :

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\version "2.18.0"

verse = {
  a4 b c' a | a b c' a | \break
}
chorus = {
  a4 b c' d' | d' e' f' g' | \break
}
song = {
   \repeat volta 2 { \verse }
   \chorus
   \verse
   \chorus
   \bar "|."
}

bass = \transpose c c,, {
<<
  \new Staff
   \with {
     \clef "bass_8"
      \omit Voice.StringNumber
   }
   {
      \song
    }
  \new TabStaff
    \with {
       \clef moderntab
       stringTunings = #bass-tuning
     }
     {
       \song
     }
     \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass"
   >>
  }
  \score {
    \bass
}
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%




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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Schneidy
2014-05-14 11:08 GMT+02:00 Carlo Vanoni <[hidden email]>:
I just noticed that using \clef "bass_8" will print a small "8" under the clef. Not nice.
How to get rid of it?

 \new Staff \with { \omit ClefModifier }


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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Carlo Vanoni
Great!
Il Mercoledì 14 Maggio 2014 11:16, Pierre Perol-Schneider <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
2014-05-14 11:08 GMT+02:00 Carlo Vanoni <[hidden email]>:
I just noticed that using \clef "bass_8" will print a small "8" under the clef. Not nice.
How to get rid of it?

 \new Staff \with { \omit ClefModifier }




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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Tim Roberts
In reply to this post by Carlo Vanoni
Carlo Vanoni [hidden email] wrote:

I just noticed that using \clef "bass_8" will print a small "8" under the clef. Not nice.
How to get rid of it?

Well, hang on a moment.

If the notes really do sound an octave below what is written, then the "8" under the clef is exactly the right notation.  If they don't sound an octave below what is written, then your transposition is not correct.
-- 
Tim Roberts, [hidden email]
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Schneidy
2014-05-14 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tim Roberts <[hidden email]>:
 
If the notes really do sound an octave below what is written, then the "8" under the clef is exactly the right notation.  If they don't sound an octave below what is written, then your transposition is not correct.

I cannot think of any rules regarding those ottavated clefs...
There is a bunch of guitar and bass scores - probably the majority of them (and I'm talking about major publishers) that do not put any 8b clef. It is simply the editor's choice.
Pierre

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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Thomas Morley-2
2014-05-14 20:45 GMT+02:00 Pierre Perol-Schneider
<[hidden email]>:

> 2014-05-14 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tim Roberts <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>>
>> If the notes really do sound an octave below what is written, then the "8"
>> under the clef is exactly the right notation.  If they don't sound an octave
>> below what is written, then your transposition is not correct.
>
>
> I cannot think of any rules regarding those ottavated clefs...
> There is a bunch of guitar and bass scores - probably the majority of them
> (and I'm talking about major publishers) that do not put any 8b clef.

Yes. I can confirm.

> It is
> simply the editor's choice.

And the editor's choice is wrong.

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Francisco Vila


El 14/05/2014 21:16, "Thomas Morley" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> 2014-05-14 20:45 GMT+02:00 Pierre Perol-Schneider
> <[hidden email]>:
> > 2014-05-14 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tim Roberts <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> If the notes really do sound an octave below what is written, then the "8"
> >> under the clef is exactly the right notation.  If they don't sound an octave
> >> below what is written, then your transposition is not correct.
> >
> >
> > I cannot think of any rules regarding those ottavated clefs...
> > There is a bunch of guitar and bass scores - probably the majority of them
> > (and I'm talking about major publishers) that do not put any 8b clef.
>
> Yes. I can confirm.
>
> > It is
> > simply the editor's choice.
>
> And the editor's choice is wrong.

I agree.  The correct clef for guitar should be G_8.
>
> Cheers,
>   Harm
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Nick Payne-3
On 15/05/2014 5:53 AM, Francisco Vila wrote:


El 14/05/2014 21:16, "Thomas Morley" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> 2014-05-14 20:45 GMT+02:00 Pierre Perol-Schneider
> <[hidden email]>:
> > 2014-05-14 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tim Roberts <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> If the notes really do sound an octave below what is written, then the "8"
> >> under the clef is exactly the right notation.  If they don't sound an octave
> >> below what is written, then your transposition is not correct.
> >
> >
> > I cannot think of any rules regarding those ottavated clefs...
> > There is a bunch of guitar and bass scores - probably the majority of them
> > (and I'm talking about major publishers) that do not put any 8b clef.
>
> Yes. I can confirm.
>
> > It is
> > simply the editor's choice.
>
> And the editor's choice is wrong.

I agree.  The correct clef for guitar should be G_8.


I would say, based on my fairly extensive collection of guitar scores, collected over about 40 years, that there are probably more commercially engraved editions that omit the "8" than those that show it.

Nick

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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Thomas Morley-2
2014-05-14 22:30 GMT+02:00 Nick Payne <[hidden email]>:

> On 15/05/2014 5:53 AM, Francisco Vila wrote:
>
>
> El 14/05/2014 21:16, "Thomas Morley" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>>
>> 2014-05-14 20:45 GMT+02:00 Pierre Perol-Schneider
>> <[hidden email]>:
>> > 2014-05-14 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tim Roberts <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> If the notes really do sound an octave below what is written, then the
>> >> "8"
>> >> under the clef is exactly the right notation.  If they don't sound an
>> >> octave
>> >> below what is written, then your transposition is not correct.
>> >
>> >
>> > I cannot think of any rules regarding those ottavated clefs...
>> > There is a bunch of guitar and bass scores - probably the majority of
>> > them
>> > (and I'm talking about major publishers) that do not put any 8b clef.
>>
>> Yes. I can confirm.
>>
>> > It is
>> > simply the editor's choice.
>>
>> And the editor's choice is wrong.
>
> I agree.  The correct clef for guitar should be G_8.
>
>
> I would say, based on my fairly extensive collection of guitar scores,
> collected over about 40 years, that there are probably more commercially
> engraved editions that omit the "8" than those that show it.
>
> Nick

True.
And all those are wrong. ;)

-Harm

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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Francisco Vila
In reply to this post by Nick Payne-3


El 14/05/2014 22:32, "Nick Payne" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> On 15/05/2014 5:53 AM, Francisco Vila wrote:
>>
>>
>> El 14/05/2014 21:16, "Thomas Morley" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>> >
>> > 2014-05-14 20:45 GMT+02:00 Pierre Perol-Schneider
>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> > > 2014-05-14 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tim Roberts <[hidden email]>:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> If the notes really do sound an octave below what is written, then the "8"
>> > >> under the clef is exactly the right notation.  If they don't sound an octave
>> > >> below what is written, then your transposition is not correct.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I cannot think of any rules regarding those ottavated clefs...
>> > > There is a bunch of guitar and bass scores - probably the majority of them
>> > > (and I'm talking about major publishers) that do not put any 8b clef.
>> >
>> > Yes. I can confirm.
>> >
>> > > It is
>> > > simply the editor's choice.
>> >
>> > And the editor's choice is wrong.
>>
>> I agree.  The correct clef for guitar should be G_8.
>
>
> I would say, based on my fairly extensive collection of guitar scores, collected over about 40 years, that there are probably more commercially engraved editions that omit the "8" than those that show it.

IMHO that expresses a high proportion of "8", more than I thought.

>
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
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> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>


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Re: relative pitch with song sections

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
Thomas Morley <[hidden email]> writes:

> 2014-05-14 22:30 GMT+02:00 Nick Payne <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I would say, based on my fairly extensive collection of guitar scores,
>> collected over about 40 years, that there are probably more commercially
>> engraved editions that omit the "8" than those that show it.
>
> True.
> And all those are wrong. ;)

A guitar player does not need the 8.  It does not hurt anybody to add it
though, and it means that other people can make sense from that input,
can play it on a keyboard (a keyboard can sound like any number of
instruments including a guitar these days) or can get an impression of
its sound in other ways.

The whole point of not writing tablature but notes is to write in a
non-instrument-specific notation.  Secretly using a different octave
muddies the advantages.

Scordatura notation for violin is similarly confusing to musicians not
in on the joke, but the tuning is usually given explicitly.  To some
degree, so is Rosenzopf-Griffschrift for Styrian Harmonica, but it has a
wholly different clef as indication.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Brian Barker
In reply to this post by Nick Payne-3
At 06:30 15/05/2014 +1000, Nick Payne wrote:
>I would say, based on my fairly extensive collection of guitar
>scores, collected over about 40 years, that there are probably more
>commercially engraved editions that omit the "8" than those that show it.

This is surely no different from the practice with tenor staves in
SATB scores, where the "8" under the tenor's treble clef is indeed
more often omitted than included. But in vocal music with more than
four parts, and especially where the number of staves shown can vary
from system to system, those little 8s are a significant help to the
eye - apart from being technically required.

Elaine Gould describes these 8s as "optional", but adds (in the
context of a full score) "the modified clef makes it easier to
identify the position of instruments with such transpositions in a score".

Brian Barker  


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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Simon Albrecht-2
Am 15.05.2014 18:53, schrieb Brian Barker:

> At 06:30 15/05/2014 +1000, Nick Payne wrote:
>> I would say, based on my fairly extensive collection of guitar
>> scores, collected over about 40 years, that there are probably more
>> commercially engraved editions that omit the "8" than those that show
>> it.
>
> This is surely no different from the practice with tenor staves in
> SATB scores, where the "8" under the tenor's treble clef is indeed
> more often omitted than included. But in vocal music with more than
> four parts, and especially where the number of staves shown can vary
> from system to system, those little 8s are a significant help to the
> eye - apart from being technically required.
>
> Elaine Gould describes these 8s as "optional", but adds (in the
> context of a full score) "the modified clef makes it easier to
> identify the position of instruments with such transpositions in a
> score".
>
> Brian Barker
At first I was also inclined towards saying that it’s correct to add the
8 and it doesn’t hurt anyone, so why not just leave it where Lily puts
it by default.
Then I thought of a counter-example: some orchestra instruments (most
notably double basses, but also contrabassoons and maybe others) to
sound an octave lower than written, and the very best of hand-engraved
scores all don’t have a clef modifier (i.e. an "8" below – or above –
the clef). The (hand-engraved and overwhelmingly well done) UE score of
Mahler’s 7th symphony, which also scores a guitar in its fourth
movement, has no clef modifier for the guitar also, but uses an
explanatory text below the instrument name, which states that the guitar
shall sound an octave lower than written.
I say this because this kind of scores for me represent the very summit
of engraving art and should IMHO serve as a reference before anything
else. That notwithstanding one may of course reconsider the case, also
because it really isn’t more than a nitpick, to be honest.

All the best,
Simon Albrecht

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Re: relative pitch with song sections

Matthew Collett
On 16/05/2014, at 10:08 am, Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At first I was also inclined towards saying that it’s correct to add the 8 and it doesn’t hurt anyone, so why not just leave it where Lily puts it by default.
> Then I thought of a counter-example: some orchestra instruments (most notably double basses, but also contrabassoons and maybe others) to sound an octave lower than written, and the very best of hand-engraved scores all don’t have a clef modifier (i.e. an "8" below – or above – the clef).

One could reasonably argue that contrabass instruments are transposing instruments -- transposing by an octave.  That is, the fact that they sound an octave lower than written is a well-known property of the instrument (not of the score), and is implied by the fact that the part is marked as being for that instrument, in exactly the same way that marking a part as for a (B-flat) trumpet implies that it sounds a tone lower than written.  I would be less persuaded by the same argument made for a guitar.

Best wishes,
Matthew
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