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quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
Hello all,

I’m trying to make my content code as efficient as possible (e.g., using variables, quotes, etc.).

In the choral piece I'm currently engraving, there is a lot of choral unison, so I'm using quoteDuring to "copy" notes from the soprano line to the others. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work with lyrics — or at least it works unpredictably: some quotes seem to quote lyrics, but then lyric quotes later in the piece (i.e., after intervening sections which are independent) seem to fail.

Before I spend the time to try to put together a MWE, is there some reason to believe quoteDuring shouldn't work on lyrics? Or, better put, is there any reason to believe it *should* (as I obviously did)? I found <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-11/msg00280.html> from 2012, but figured there might have been changes in the meanwhile that make the question fresh again.

Thanks for any insights.
Kieren.
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Phil Holmes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kieren MacMillan" <[hidden email]>
To: "Lilypond-User Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 2:45 PM
Subject: quoteDuring with lyrics


> Hello all,
>
> I’m trying to make my content code as efficient as possible (e.g., using
> variables, quotes, etc.).
>
> In the choral piece I'm currently engraving, there is a lot of choral
> unison, so I'm using quoteDuring to "copy" notes from the soprano line to
> the others. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work with lyrics — or at
> least it works unpredictably: some quotes seem to quote lyrics, but then
> lyric quotes later in the piece (i.e., after intervening sections which
> are independent) seem to fail.
>
> Before I spend the time to try to put together a MWE, is there some reason
> to believe quoteDuring shouldn't work on lyrics? Or, better put, is there
> any reason to believe it *should* (as I obviously did)? I found
> <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-11/msg00280.html>
> from 2012, but figured there might have been changes in the meanwhile that
> make the question fresh again.
>
> Thanks for any insights.
> Kieren.

I wonder whether it's down to Lily changing the voice during some quoted
passages?

--
Phil Holmes


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
Hi Phil,

> I wonder whether it's down to Lily changing the voice during some quoted passages?

Good guess… but I'm not [explicitly] using anything but single voices in this passage.

I've included, below, a M(?)WE which fails in a slightly different way than my "real-world" score. The particular way this snippet fails suggests [to me] that the \skip construct I'm using as the second parameter of \quoteDuring isn't playing nicely; that could also explain the (slightly different) failure in my "real-world" score. If this *is* the problem, it sort of makes sense… but I can't figure out another way to indicate the duration(s) I want quoted.

Cheers,
Kieren.

%%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.19.60"

sop = {
  a'4 4 4 4 \break
  a'4 4 2 \break
  a'4 4 4 4
}
\addQuote #"sop" \sop

sopL = \lyricmode {
  These are quoted words.
  These are not.
  Quote these a -- gain.
}
\addQuote #"sopL" \sopL

alto = {
  \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
  f'4 4 2
  \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
}

altoL = \lyricmode {
  \quoteDuring #"sopL" \repeat unfold 4 { \skip 8 }
  Not these ones.
  \quoteDuring #"sopL" \repeat unfold 4 { \skip 8 }
}

<<
  \new Staff \new Voice = "s" \sop
  \addlyrics \sopL
  \new Staff \new Voice = "a" \alto
  \addlyrics \altoL
>>
%%%  SNIPPET ENDS

________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Thomas Morley-2
Hi Kieren,

as far as I understand:

2017-06-05 17:43 GMT+02:00 Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Phil,
>
>> I wonder whether it's down to Lily changing the voice during some quoted passages?
>
> Good guess… but I'm not [explicitly] using anything but single voices in this passage.
>
> I've included, below, a M(?)WE which fails in a slightly different way than my "real-world" score. The particular way this snippet fails suggests [to me] that the \skip construct I'm using as the second parameter of \quoteDuring isn't playing nicely; that could also explain the (slightly different) failure in my "real-world" score. If this *is* the problem, it sort of makes sense… but I can't figure out another way to indicate the duration(s) I want quoted.
>
> Cheers,
> Kieren.
>
> %%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
> \version "2.19.60"
>
> sop = {
>   a'4 4 4 4 \break
>   a'4 4 2 \break
>   a'4 4 4 4
> }
> \addQuote #"sop" \sop
>

the lyrics of sopL are all entered with default-duration:

> sopL = \lyricmode {
>   These are quoted words.
>   These are not.
>   Quote these a -- gain.
> }

and addQuote works with this default-duration.

> \addQuote #"sopL" \sopL
>
> alto = {
>   \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
>   f'4 4 2
>   \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
> }
>

Now sopL-lyrics are quoted according to this *default*-duration.
So the second quote is
these a -- gain
nothing else!


> altoL = \lyricmode {
>   \quoteDuring #"sopL" \repeat unfold 4 { \skip 8 }
>   Not these ones.
>   \quoteDuring #"sopL" \repeat unfold 4 { \skip 8 }
> }
>
> <<
>   \new Staff \new Voice = "s" \sop
>   \addlyrics \sopL
>   \new Staff \new Voice = "a" \alto
>   \addlyrics \altoL
>>>
> %%%  SNIPPET ENDS


One could say the lyrics are quoted _before_ they are assigned to
their corresponding note.

You could circumvent it by entering durations in sopL. It wouldn't
disturb addlyrics or lyricsto, afaik, but addQuote would have the
chance to work as you expect. Though, I have my doubts you would want
to do so.


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Thomas Morley-2
2017-06-05 22:12 GMT+02:00 Thomas Morley <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Kieren,
>
> as far as I understand:
>
> 2017-06-05 17:43 GMT+02:00 Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi Phil,
>>
>>> I wonder whether it's down to Lily changing the voice during some quoted passages?
>>
>> Good guess… but I'm not [explicitly] using anything but single voices in this passage.
>>
>> I've included, below, a M(?)WE which fails in a slightly different way than my "real-world" score. The particular way this snippet fails suggests [to me] that the \skip construct I'm using as the second parameter of \quoteDuring isn't playing nicely; that could also explain the (slightly different) failure in my "real-world" score. If this *is* the problem, it sort of makes sense… but I can't figure out another way to indicate the duration(s) I want quoted.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kieren.
>>
>> %%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
>> \version "2.19.60"
>>
>> sop = {
>>   a'4 4 4 4 \break
>>   a'4 4 2 \break
>>   a'4 4 4 4
>> }
>> \addQuote #"sop" \sop
>>
>
> the lyrics of sopL are all entered with default-duration:
>
>> sopL = \lyricmode {
>>   These are quoted words.
>>   These are not.
>>   Quote these a -- gain.
>> }
>
> and addQuote works with this default-duration.
>
>> \addQuote #"sopL" \sopL
>>
>> alto = {
>>   \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
>>   f'4 4 2
>>   \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
>> }
>>
>
> Now sopL-lyrics are quoted according to this *default*-duration.
> So the second quote is
> these a -- gain
> nothing else!

Ehrm, I used a slightly different snippet:

%%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.19.60"

sop = {
  a'4 4 4 4 \break
  a'4 4 2 \break
  a'4 4 4 4
}
\addQuote #"sop" \sop

sopL = \lyricmode {
  These are quoted words.
  These are not.
  Quote these a -- gain.
}
\addQuote #"sopL" \sopL



alto = {
  \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
  f'4 4 2
  \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
}

altoL = \lyricmode {
  \quoteDuring #"sopL" \skip 1
  Not these ones.
  \quoteDuring #"sopL" \skip 1
}

mus =
<<
  \new Staff \new Voice = "s" \sop
  \addlyrics \sopL
  \new Staff \new Voice = "a" \alto
  \addlyrics \altoL
>>

sc = \score { \mus }

%% to get some more detailed info about the quotes:
%#(display-scheme-music (ly:score-music sc))

%\void \displayMusic \sopL

\mus
%%%  SNIPPET ENDS

>
>
>> altoL = \lyricmode {
>>   \quoteDuring #"sopL" \repeat unfold 4 { \skip 8 }
>>   Not these ones.
>>   \quoteDuring #"sopL" \repeat unfold 4 { \skip 8 }
>> }
>>
>> <<
>>   \new Staff \new Voice = "s" \sop
>>   \addlyrics \sopL
>>   \new Staff \new Voice = "a" \alto
>>   \addlyrics \altoL
>>>>
>> %%%  SNIPPET ENDS
>
>
> One could say the lyrics are quoted _before_ they are assigned to
> their corresponding note.
>
> You could circumvent it by entering durations in sopL. It wouldn't
> disturb addlyrics or lyricsto, afaik, but addQuote would have the
> chance to work as you expect. Though, I have my doubts you would want
> to do so.
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Harm

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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
Thomas Morley <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi Kieren,
>
> as far as I understand:
>
> 2017-06-05 17:43 GMT+02:00 Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi Phil,
>>
>>> I wonder whether it's down to Lily changing the voice during some
>>> quoted passages?
>>
>> Good guess… but I'm not [explicitly] using anything but single
>> voices in this passage.
>>
>> I've included, below, a M(?)WE which fails in a slightly different
>> way than my "real-world" score. The particular way this snippet
>> fails suggests [to me] that the \skip construct I'm using as the
>> second parameter of \quoteDuring isn't playing nicely; that could
>> also explain the (slightly different) failure in my "real-world"
>> score. If this *is* the problem, it sort of makes sense… but I can't
>> figure out another way to indicate the duration(s) I want quoted.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kieren.
>>
>> %%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
>> \version "2.19.60"
>>
>> sop = {
>>   a'4 4 4 4 \break
>>   a'4 4 2 \break
>>   a'4 4 4 4
>> }
>> \addQuote #"sop" \sop
>>
>
> the lyrics of sopL are all entered with default-duration:
>
>> sopL = \lyricmode {
>>   These are quoted words.
>>   These are not.
>>   Quote these a -- gain.
>> }
>
> and addQuote works with this default-duration.
>
>> \addQuote #"sopL" \sopL
>>
>> alto = {
>>   \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
>>   f'4 4 2
>>   \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
>> }
>>
>
> Now sopL-lyrics are quoted according to this *default*-duration.
> So the second quote is
> these a -- gain
> nothing else!

[...]

> One could say the lyrics are quoted _before_ they are assigned to
> their corresponding note.
>
> You could circumvent it by entering durations in sopL. It wouldn't
> disturb addlyrics or lyricsto, afaik, but addQuote would have the
> chance to work as you expect. Though, I have my doubts you would want
> to do so.

If you want to _quote_ lyrics, I really would suggest to enter them
_with_ durations instead of relying on \addlyrics / \lyricsto .

That way, their timing is properly established.

Entering lyrics with durations actually saves a lot of headaches (you
still want to set the associatedVoice context though in the actual
Lyrics context in order to get proper formatting and extenders).

--
David Kastrup

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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
Hi all,

[Harm:]
>> the lyrics of sopL are all entered with default-duration:
>> and addQuote works with this default-duration.

Ah… of course. Thanks.

>> You could circumvent it by entering durations in sopL. It wouldn't
>> disturb addlyrics or lyricsto, afaik, but addQuote would have the
>> chance to work as you expect. Though, I have my doubts you would want
>> to do so.

I'm working on this piece with an eye towards having, at the end of the process, a nice example/system/framework/method that I can share with the 'Pond. As such, I guess I'll have to figure out which is more desirable: saving the effort of entering explicit durations, or having quotable lyrics.

[David K:]
> Entering lyrics with durations actually saves a lot of headaches

Beyond this issue, what other headache-savings can you point to?
If I'm ultimately recommending a more typing-intensive method to other users, I'd like to at least have some carrots to back up my stick**.

Thanks everyone!
Kieren.

**  Yes, I know I'm using this analogy in the modified (some would say "incorrect") modern sense…  ;)
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

David Kastrup
Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi all,
>
> [Harm:]
>>> the lyrics of sopL are all entered with default-duration:
>>> and addQuote works with this default-duration.
>
> Ah… of course. Thanks.
>
>>> You could circumvent it by entering durations in sopL. It wouldn't
>>> disturb addlyrics or lyricsto, afaik, but addQuote would have the
>>> chance to work as you expect. Though, I have my doubts you would want
>>> to do so.
>
> I'm working on this piece with an eye towards having, at the end of
> the process, a nice example/system/framework/method that I can share
> with the 'Pond. As such, I guess I'll have to figure out which is more
> desirable: saving the effort of entering explicit durations, or having
> quotable lyrics.
>
> [David K:]
>> Entering lyrics with durations actually saves a lot of headaches
>
> Beyond this issue, what other headache-savings can you point to?

Not having to bother with melismata and slurs and autobeaming and
whatnot.  Also, the Midi lyrics are not magically different for some
reason (it does help that autobeaming defaults are now the same in Midi
and Layout: that wasn't always so and it affected lyrics associations).

> If I'm ultimately recommending a more typing-intensive method to other
> users, I'd like to at least have some carrots to back up my stick**.

I think it is a bit similar to using \relative versus \fixed et al: you
don't have to coax something to work in a purportedly simpler way
depending more on local details.

It's not really a good sell unless you have been bitten often enough.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Karlin High 1
In reply to this post by Kieren MacMillan
On 6/5/2017 3:46 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> I'm working on this piece with an eye towards having, at the end of the process, a nice example/system/framework/method that I can share with the 'Pond.

Apparently there is no good emoticon for "waiting with bated-breath
anticipation."
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA
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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
Hi David,

>> [David K:]
>>> Entering lyrics with durations actually saves a lot of headaches
>> Beyond this issue, what other headache-savings can you point to?
>
> Not having to bother with melismata and slurs and autobeaming and whatnot.

Not sure what you mean by "not having to bother with"…? (e.g. It certainly seems I still have to add extenders manually in order to show melismata.)

> I think it is a bit similar to using \relative versus \fixed et al: you
> don't have to coax something to work in a purportedly simpler way
> depending more on local details.

As you may recall, I'm a die-hard anti-\relative-ite.  =)

> It's not really a good sell unless you have been bitten often enough.

Hmmm… So far, I'm not loving explicit lyric durations.
I'll play with it a bit more, but my first impression is that it will ultimately be superior to use \addlyrics and abandon the dream of quotable lyrics.

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Vaughan McAlley
On 6 June 2017 at 11:31, Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi David,

>> [David K:]
>>> Entering lyrics with durations actually saves a lot of headaches
>> Beyond this issue, what other headache-savings can you point to?
>
> Not having to bother with melismata and slurs and autobeaming and whatnot.

Not sure what you mean by "not having to bother with"…? (e.g. It certainly seems I still have to add extenders manually in order to show melismata.)

> I think it is a bit similar to using \relative versus \fixed et al: you
> don't have to coax something to work in a purportedly simpler way
> depending more on local details.

As you may recall, I'm a die-hard anti-\relative-ite.  =)

> It's not really a good sell unless you have been bitten often enough.

Hmmm… So far, I'm not loving explicit lyric durations.
I'll play with it a bit more, but my first impression is that it will ultimately be superior to use \addlyrics and abandon the dream of quotable lyrics.

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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If you want to use variables for unison, perhaps try something like this:

unisonBarsTwoToThree = { a'4 c'' a'2 b'1 }

sop = { a'2 e''8 d'' c'' b' \unisonBarsTwoToThree }

bass = { a2 gis \transpose c' c \unisonBarsTwoToThree }

With careful labelling it should probably be fine.

Vaughan



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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Kieren MacMillan
Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi David,
>
>>> [David K:]
>>>> Entering lyrics with durations actually saves a lot of headaches
>>> Beyond this issue, what other headache-savings can you point to?
>>
>> Not having to bother with melismata and slurs and autobeaming and whatnot.
>
> Not sure what you mean by "not having to bother with"…? (e.g. It
> certainly seems I still have to add extenders manually in order to
> show melismata.)
>
>> I think it is a bit similar to using \relative versus \fixed et al: you
>> don't have to coax something to work in a purportedly simpler way
>> depending more on local details.
>
> As you may recall, I'm a die-hard anti-\relative-ite.  =)
>
>> It's not really a good sell unless you have been bitten often enough.
>
> Hmmm… So far, I'm not loving explicit lyric durations.
> I'll play with it a bit more, but my first impression is that it will
> ultimately be superior to use \addlyrics and abandon the dream of
> quotable lyrics.

Maybe.  You can of course just put lyrics in a variable, but then the
lyrics distribution to notes will of course be done fresh when you use
that variable.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
Hi David,

> You can of course just put lyrics in a variable, but then the
> lyrics distribution to notes will of course be done fresh when you use
> that variable.

I was just playing around with that feature when your post arrived!

It's actually quite lovely and powerful, if you think like a programmer (like I do)… but it's unlikely to help the novice or average user.
And the extra "fragmentation" of the code may be more disadvantageous than the redundant lyric typing.

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
In reply to this post by Vaughan McAlley
Hi Vaughan,

> If you want to use variables for unison, perhaps try something like this:
> unisonBarsTwoToThree = { a'4 c'' a'2 b'1 }
> sop = { a'2 e''8 d'' c'' b' \unisonBarsTwoToThree }
> bass = { a2 gis \transpose c' c \unisonBarsTwoToThree }
> With careful labelling it should probably be fine.

This works, of course… but it's not user-friendly, and that's one of the key intentions I have for this method/framework. Fortunately, the quoting mechanism works really well for the pitch side of things [with only one exception, which I'm working on right now], so I'll stick with that.

Thanks,
Kieren.
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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
In reply to this post by Karlin High 1
Hi Karlin,

> Apparently there is no good emoticon for "waiting with bated-breath anticipation."

<http://i.imgur.com/RZ3QcsW.png>

Mid-Course Update: There are a few things that I think *must* be worked out before any recommendation could be released "into the wild". In particular, how quoting works (or doesn't) with lyrics and partcombining needs to be either fixed or elegantly worked around. I suppose a "current state-of-the-art" article might be enough at this stage, but I would really love it if my current personal efforts (i.e., my long-overdue engraving of "Wither's Carol") lead to a "turnkey solution" for most people's needs.

I'll send more when there is more!
Kieren.
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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Carl Sorensen-3
In reply to this post by Kieren MacMillan
On 6/6/17 8:08 AM, "Kieren MacMillan" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>Hi David,
>
>> You can of course just put lyrics in a variable, but then the
>> lyrics distribution to notes will of course be done fresh when you use
>> that variable.
>
>I was just playing around with that feature when your post arrived!
>
>It's actually quite lovely and powerful, if you think like a programmer
>(like I do)Š but it's unlikely to help the novice or average user.
>And the extra "fragmentation" of the code may be more disadvantageous
>than the redundant lyric typing.

Even though I think like a programmer, I have found that the extra
fragmentation of code caused by using notes in variables is in many cases
worse that redundant note typing.

If the variables have specific meaning (e.g. phraseOne, bridge, phraseTwo)
then it might be worth using.  But I always struggle a bit about how to
balance this the best in my usage.

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
Hi Carl (et al.),

> Even though I think like a programmer, I have found that the extra
> fragmentation of code caused by using notes in variables is in many cases
> worse that redundant note typing.

I agree. That's why I'm hoping to maximize the possibility of quotation (as opposed to abstraction) mechanisms. Code like

  sop = {
    c''4 4 4 4
    d''4 4 4 4
    e''4 4 4 4
  }
  \addQuote #"sop" \sop

  alt = {
    \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
    c'4 4 4 4
    \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
  }

seems more intuitive, transparent, and maintainable than
 
  sharedA = { c''4 4 4 4 }
  sharedB = { e''4 4 4 4 }

  sop = {
    \sharedA
    d''4 4 4 4
    \sharedB
  }

  alt = {
    \sharedA
    c'4 4 4 4
    \sharedB
  }

> If the variables have specific meaning (e.g. phraseOne, bridge, phraseTwo)
> then it might be worth using.  But I always struggle a bit about how to
> balance this the best in my usage.

Me, too. Frescobaldi helps some with this (but I *do* wish there were an option to "click on score takes me to the context, not the definition").

Cheers,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Carl Sorensen-3
On 6/6/17 1:37 PM, "Kieren MacMillan" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>Hi Carl (et al.),
>
>> Even though I think like a programmer, I have found that the extra
>> fragmentation of code caused by using notes in variables is in many
>>cases
>> worse that redundant note typing.
>
>I agree. That's why I'm hoping to maximize the possibility of quotation
>(as opposed to abstraction) mechanisms. Code like
>
>  sop = {
>    c''4 4 4 4
>    d''4 4 4 4
>    e''4 4 4 4
>  }
>  \addQuote #"sop" \sop
>
>  alt = {
>    \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
>    c'4 4 4 4
>    \quoteDuring #"sop" s1
>  }

Now I see what you are thinking.  Yes, this would greatly help the
problems I face in trying to keep the music accessible.

It seems like if it were possible to make \addQuote work on music
expressions, rather than during translation, the partcombine problem would
be solved.  But then there would have to be some sort of "pre-translation"
that would be needed, which sounds like a never-ending rabbit hole.  So
during translation is probably the logically correct time.  And probably
we would need to develop a way to capture multiple Bottom contexts in the
quoting mechanism, like David suggested.

Personally, I'm a bit (or more probably, a lot) fuzzy about how the
internals of \addQuote and \quoteDuring work.

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: quoteDuring with lyrics

Kieren MacMillan
Hi Carl,

> this would greatly help the problems I face in trying to keep the music accessible.

Yes! (meaning both "I'm glad!" and "Same here!")

> It seems like if it were possible to make \addQuote work on music expressions,
> rather than during translation, the partcombine problem would be solved.

That's what I was thinking.
And, if I'm not mistaken, it would also solve the current problem with regard to transposed quotations…?

> Personally, I'm a bit (or more probably, a lot) fuzzy about how the
> internals of \addQuote and \quoteDuring work.

Count me amongst the fuzziest.  =)

Best,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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