problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

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problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

James Lowe-3
Hello,

I saw arecent update by a LP user to an 'already-fixed' tracker

<https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/3290/>

That made it into my inbox thus:

On 06/07/2019 21:54, Christopher Heckman wrote:

> It's isn't just the website; the boards for augmented and diminished chords are calculated incorrectly.
>
> \include "predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly"
> \new FretBoards \chordmode { b:dim f:aug aes:aug g:dim }
>
> The F aug chord is incorrect; it actually shows a G augmented chord. In all four cases, the numbers at the bottom do not match up with the diagram. The B dim number should be 2343, the A flat aug 032110, and G dim should be 3131.
>
> Others might be incorrect as well.
>
> --- Christopher Heckman
I've just built current master and ran it on this person's tiny example
(see attached screenshot of output), I have zero knowledge about
guitar/frets and wondered if someone could check the output to see if,
as claimed, the output is wrong?

I can then go from there and create a new ticket.

James



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Re: problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

David Kastrup
James <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I saw arecent update by a LP user to an 'already-fixed' tracker
>
> <https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/3290/>
>
> That made it into my inbox thus:
>
> On 06/07/2019 21:54, Christopher Heckman wrote:
>> It's isn't just the website; the boards for augmented and diminished
>> chords are calculated incorrectly.
>>
>> \include "predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly"
>> \new FretBoards \chordmode { b:dim f:aug aes:aug g:dim }
>>
>> The F aug chord is incorrect; it actually shows a G augmented
>> chord.

>> In all four cases, the numbers at the bottom do not match up with the
>> diagram. The B dim number should be 2343, the A flat aug 032110, and
>> G dim should be 3131.

This is just a misunderstanding of the numbers: they are not fret
numbers but fingering numbers.  It is a bit unusual that they are
present by default: typically players are expected to figure them out on
their own, and sometimes they are just inscribed in the dots.

f:aug is clearly wrong, aes:aug has the right notes but the root note is
awkward, not being the lowest.  I have no idea how guitarists would feel
about that.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

Carl Sorensen-3


On 7/17/19, 6:55 AM, "lilypond-devel on behalf of David Kastrup" <lilypond-devel-bounces+c_sorensen=[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    James <[hidden email]> writes:
   
    > Hello,
    >
    > I saw arecent update by a LP user to an 'already-fixed' tracker
    >
    > <https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/3290/>
    >
    > That made it into my inbox thus:
    >
    > On 06/07/2019 21:54, Christopher Heckman wrote:
    >> It's isn't just the website; the boards for augmented and diminished
    >> chords are calculated incorrectly.
    >>
    >> \include "predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly"
    >> \new FretBoards \chordmode { b:dim f:aug aes:aug g:dim }
    >>
    >> The F aug chord is incorrect; it actually shows a G augmented
    >> chord.
   
    >> In all four cases, the numbers at the bottom do not match up with the
    >> diagram. The B dim number should be 2343, the A flat aug 032110, and
    >> G dim should be 3131.
   
    This is just a misunderstanding of the numbers: they are not fret
    numbers but fingering numbers.  It is a bit unusual that they are
    present by default: typically players are expected to figure them out on
    their own, and sometimes they are just inscribed in the dots.

I agree with David's assessment that the reporter misunderstood the numbers, which are fingering numbers.  The presence or absence of fingering numbers is a house style decision.   Most of the popular music piano/guitar/vocal books that I have use finger numbers; they are about equally split between having the numbers at the bottom of the diagram  and having numbers in the dots.
   
    f:aug is clearly wrong, aes:aug has the right notes but the root note is
    awkward, not being the lowest.  I have no idea how guitarists would feel
    about that.
   
The diagrams and fingerings came from my reference "The Big Gig Bag Book of Guitar Chords".  I don't have enough experience to vouch for the diagrams; I just copied the information.  I would be happy to replace any diagrams with correct diagrams as reported by somebody with more expertise than me.

Thanks,

Carl
 

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Re: problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

Wols Lists
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
On 17/07/19 13:55, David Kastrup wrote:
> f:aug is clearly wrong, aes:aug has the right notes but the root note is
> awkward, not being the lowest.  I have no idea how guitarists would feel
> about that.

As a classical guitarist, I think there is a notation for "don't use
this string" (for example, the chord of C uses strings 1-5, but 6 is an
E so that's okay).

But provided the bottom string is part of the chord, it doesn't really
matter. After all, chords are quite often inverted in other music too, no?

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

David Kastrup
Wols Lists <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 17/07/19 13:55, David Kastrup wrote:
>> f:aug is clearly wrong, aes:aug has the right notes but the root note is
>> awkward, not being the lowest.  I have no idea how guitarists would feel
>> about that.
>
> As a classical guitarist, I think there is a notation for "don't use
> this string" (for example, the chord of C uses strings 1-5, but 6 is an
> E so that's okay).

Uh, playing that E as part of a chord sounds awful.  In alternate bass
picking, you'd usually put a G on the E string.

> But provided the bottom string is part of the chord, it doesn't really
> matter. After all, chords are quite often inverted in other music too,
> no?

An inversion is an inversion.  Guitar chords tend to be comparatively
nonchalant about them except for the root note, and that's what we are
talking about here.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

Carl Sorensen-3
In reply to this post by Wols Lists


On 7/18/19, 8:34 AM, "lilypond-devel on behalf of Wols Lists" <lilypond-devel-bounces+c_sorensen=[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    On 17/07/19 13:55, David Kastrup wrote:
    > f:aug is clearly wrong, aes:aug has the right notes but the root note is
    > awkward, not being the lowest.  I have no idea how guitarists would feel
    > about that.
   
    As a classical guitarist, I think there is a notation for "don't use
    this string" (for example, the chord of C uses strings 1-5, but 6 is an
    E so that's okay).

Correct.  We use an x to indicate a non-played (muted) string.
   
    But provided the bottom string is part of the chord, it doesn't really
    matter. After all, chords are quite often inverted in other music too, no?
   
This is my experience with a number of chord diagrams on the guitar, especially as we move away from the pop music common major, minor, dominant7 chords.

Thanks,

Carl
 

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Re: problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

Wols Lists
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
On 18/07/19 15:42, David Kastrup wrote:
>> But provided the bottom string is part of the chord, it doesn't really
>> > matter. After all, chords are quite often inverted in other music too,
>> > no?

> An inversion is an inversion.  Guitar chords tend to be comparatively
> nonchalant about them except for the root note, and that's what we are
> talking about here.

Isn't the whole point of an inversion that the root isn't at the bottom?
At least that's what I remember from my music theory.

So a C-chord using all six strings is a first inversion - the 3rd of the
chord is at the bottom. Which probably does sound not too good on its
own ...

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: problem with predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly?

David Kastrup
Wols Lists <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 18/07/19 15:42, David Kastrup wrote:
>>> But provided the bottom string is part of the chord, it doesn't really
>>> > matter. After all, chords are quite often inverted in other music too,
>>> > no?
>
>> An inversion is an inversion.  Guitar chords tend to be comparatively
>> nonchalant about them except for the root note, and that's what we are
>> talking about here.
>
> Isn't the whole point of an inversion that the root isn't at the bottom?
> At least that's what I remember from my music theory.

Well, it's more a matter of "voicing" than of "inversion" with a guitar
since mapping chords to notes is different on a fretboard instrument
than on a keyboard instrument (I don't want to discuss clavichords
here).

> So a C-chord using all six strings is a first inversion - the 3rd of
> the chord is at the bottom. Which probably does sound not too good on
> its own ...

It actually sounds awful.  The lowest note sort-of determines what you'd
call the equivalent of an inversion on a guitar.

--
David Kastrup

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