placing a turn between notes

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placing a turn between notes

jeff covey
i'm updating my score files for lily 2.4+, and i have a problem with the
ninth bach invention.  in the last measure, i need a mordent over a note and
a turn between it and the next note; you can see this in the copy on
mutopia:

http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/BWV780/bach-invention-09/bach-invention-09-let.pdf

the solution i was given in 2003 was:

c'8.[^#'(columns (music "scripts-mordent" ((kern . 3) "scripts-turn")) des16)]

, but this no longer works.  what should i do now?  the articulations
section of the manual only talks about moving articulations up and down, not
from left to right.

thanks,

--
jeff covey
http://jeffcovey.net/


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Re: placing a turn between notes

Graham Percival

On 10-Jun-05, at 11:45 AM, jeff covey wrote:

> the solution i was given in 2003 was:
>
> c'8.[^#'(columns (music "scripts-mordent" ((kern . 3) "scripts-turn"))
> des16)]

The ^#" "  method of placing text has changed to ^\markup.  Try
c'8.^\markup{ \line { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3
\musicglyph #"scripts.turn" } }  des16

You may wish to increase the amount of hspace.

Cheers,
- Graham



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Re: placing a turn between notes

Nicolas Sceaux
Graham Percival <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 10-Jun-05, at 11:45 AM, jeff covey wrote:
>
>> the solution i was given in 2003 was:
>>
>> c'8.[^#'(columns (music "scripts-mordent" ((kern . 3)
>> "scripts-turn")) des16)]
>
> The ^#" "  method of placing text has changed to ^\markup.  Try
> c'8.^\markup{ \line { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3
> \musicglyph #"scripts.turn" } }  des16

Also note that the \line placed just after \markup is redundant.

\markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent"
          \hspace #0.3 \musicglyph #"scripts.turn" }


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Re: placing a turn between notes

jeff covey
on Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 11:09:58AM +0200%, Nicolas Sceaux said:

> \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent"
>           \hspace #0.3 \musicglyph #"scripts.turn" }

that didn't work, but it did work when i used "scripts-mordent" and
"scripts-turn" instead.  thanks!

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Re: placing a turn between notes

Mats Bengtsson-6
Please always specify what LilyPond version you use both when
asking questions and providing answers, to avoid these kind of
confusions. Nicolas answer was for 2.5 and Jeff apparently uses
2.4 or earlier.

    /Mats

jeff covey wrote:

> on Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 11:09:58AM +0200%, Nicolas Sceaux said:
>
>
>>\markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent"
>>          \hspace #0.3 \musicglyph #"scripts.turn" }
>
>
> that didn't work, but it did work when i used "scripts-mordent" and
> "scripts-turn" instead.  thanks!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
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--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: placing a turn between notes

jeff covey
on Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 09:01:14PM +0200%, Mats Bengtsson said:

> Please always specify what LilyPond version you use both when asking
> questions and providing answers, to avoid these kind of confusions.

ah, sorry.

thanks,

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RE: placing a turn between notes

Fairchild
In reply to this post by Graham Percival
I believe the ^#". . ." also can now be simply ^". . ."; similarly with -#".
. ." and _#". . .".  Convert-ly v 2.4.3 doesn't handle.

                               - Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: lilypond-user-bounces+fairchild=[hidden email]
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+fairchild=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Graham Percival
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:11 PM
To: jeff covey
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: placing a turn between notes

On 10-Jun-05, at 11:45 AM, jeff covey wrote:

> the solution i was given in 2003 was:
>
> c'8.[^#'(columns (music "scripts-mordent" ((kern . 3) "scripts-turn"))
> des16)]

The ^#" "  method of placing text has changed to ^\markup.  Try
c'8.^\markup{ \line { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3
\musicglyph #"scripts.turn" } }  des16

You may wish to increase the amount of hspace.

Cheers,
- Graham



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Re: placing a turn between notes

Mats Bengtsson-6


Fairchild wrote:
> I believe the ^#". . ." also can now be simply ^". . ."; similarly with -#".
> . ." and _#". . .".

Yes and no! Before version 1.8, ^#"..." was equivalent to ^"...",
whereas ^#(...) was the old syntax for text markup, i.e. the current
^\markup{...}.

 > Convert-ly v 2.4.3 doesn't handle.

The convert-ly that comes with the latest 2.5.xx versions does handle
the conversion of markup from pre 1.8 syntax much better.

    /Mats

>
>                                - Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lilypond-user-bounces+fairchild=[hidden email]
> [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+fairchild=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Graham Percival
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:11 PM
> To: jeff covey
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: placing a turn between notes
>
> On 10-Jun-05, at 11:45 AM, jeff covey wrote:
>
>
>>the solution i was given in 2003 was:
>>
>>c'8.[^#'(columns (music "scripts-mordent" ((kern . 3) "scripts-turn"))
>>des16)]
>
>
> The ^#" "  method of placing text has changed to ^\markup.  Try
> c'8.^\markup{ \line { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3
> \musicglyph #"scripts.turn" } }  des16
>
> You may wish to increase the amount of hspace.
>
> Cheers,
> - Graham
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: Placing turn between notes

Donald Axel
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:23:59 +0200
Mats wrote:

> Fairchild wrote:
> > I believe the ^#". . ." also can now be simply ^". . ."; similarly with -#".
> > . ." and _#". . .".
>
> Yes and no! Before version 1.8, ^#"..." was equivalent to ^"...",
> whereas ^#(...) was the old syntax for text markup, i.e. the current
> ^\markup{...}.

This is an interesting thread. I have searched Mutopia for "turns"
in between notes but could not find examples.

Nor did I find an example of turn between notes
in the "trill" section of the manual.

One could live without, I guess, nevertheless it is essential
for understanding timing of a turn in an Mozart-like adagio.
The example in this thread demonstrates how to do it, but
I cannot get it to work. I have folded long lines. Quite impressive
output for so short an example, huh? Something which especially
hurts my pride is the "Braces don't match" postulate.

Well, reading this errmsg. I have tried to change \line {
into \line <

and then the snippet translates but it still does not give any
turn. And the beam is tilted the wrong way.



Can you help me? Thanks in advance.

Processing `turn.ly'
Parsing...

turn.ly:8:13: error: parse error, unexpected '{', expecting '<':
       \line
             { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3

turn.ly:12:0: error: parse error, unexpected '}', expecting '=':

}

turn.ly:16:5: error: parse error, unexpected '<',
 expecting DRUM_PITCH or NOTENAME_PITCH or '>':
    <
     <

turn.ly:20:6: error: Error found in this music expression. Ignoring it:
     
      }

turn.ly:21:3: error: parse error, unexpected '>':
   
   >>

turn.ly:15:5: warning: Braces don't match:
\scor
     e {

error: failed files: turn.ly


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
%!Lilypond

\version "2.4.5"


ViolinoI = {
    c'8.^\markup {
       %% change to \line <  %% does not help
       \line { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3
               \musicglyph #"scripts.turn"
             }
    }  des16
}


\score {
    <<
      \context Voice = primo {
         \clef treble
         \ViolinoI
      }
   >>
}

--
dax2-tele2adsl:dk -- http://d-axel.dk/  Donald Axel


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Re: Placing turn between notes

Mats Bengtsson-6
Why not read all emails in the thread? Nicolaus Sceaux sent a
working example for version 2.5 and Jeff Covey explained in a
followup how that should be modified to work in version 2.4.

    /Mats

dax2 wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:23:59 +0200
> Mats wrote:
>
>
>>Fairchild wrote:
>>
>>>I believe the ^#". . ." also can now be simply ^". . ."; similarly with -#".
>>>. ." and _#". . .".
>>
>>Yes and no! Before version 1.8, ^#"..." was equivalent to ^"...",
>>whereas ^#(...) was the old syntax for text markup, i.e. the current
>>^\markup{...}.
>
>
> This is an interesting thread. I have searched Mutopia for "turns"
> in between notes but could not find examples.
>
> Nor did I find an example of turn between notes
> in the "trill" section of the manual.
>
> One could live without, I guess, nevertheless it is essential
> for understanding timing of a turn in an Mozart-like adagio.
> The example in this thread demonstrates how to do it, but
> I cannot get it to work. I have folded long lines. Quite impressive
> output for so short an example, huh? Something which especially
> hurts my pride is the "Braces don't match" postulate.
>
> Well, reading this errmsg. I have tried to change \line {
> into \line <
>
> and then the snippet translates but it still does not give any
> turn. And the beam is tilted the wrong way.
>
>
>
> Can you help me? Thanks in advance.
>
> Processing `turn.ly'
> Parsing...
>
> turn.ly:8:13: error: parse error, unexpected '{', expecting '<':
>        \line
>              { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3
>
> turn.ly:12:0: error: parse error, unexpected '}', expecting '=':
>
> }
>
> turn.ly:16:5: error: parse error, unexpected '<',
>  expecting DRUM_PITCH or NOTENAME_PITCH or '>':
>     <
>      <
>
> turn.ly:20:6: error: Error found in this music expression. Ignoring it:
>      
>       }
>
> turn.ly:21:3: error: parse error, unexpected '>':
>    
>    >>
>
> turn.ly:15:5: warning: Braces don't match:
> \scor
>      e {
>
> error: failed files: turn.ly
>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> %!Lilypond
>
> \version "2.4.5"
>
>
> ViolinoI = {
>     c'8.^\markup {
>        %% change to \line <  %% does not help
>        \line { \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \hspace #0.3
>                \musicglyph #"scripts.turn"
>              }
>     }  des16
> }
>
>
> \score {
>     <<
>       \context Voice = primo {
>          \clef treble
>          \ViolinoI
>       }
>    >>
> }
>

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: Placing turn between notes

Donald Axel
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:24:36 +0200
Mats wrote:

> Why not read all emails in the thread? Nicolaus Sceaux sent a
> working example for version 2.5 and Jeff Covey explained in a
> followup how that should be modified to work in version 2.4.

Oh dear, I can't even claim that the threading of my mailer
wasn't working:-> Thank for the directions. I managed to get a nice
turn now (and it is easy to add accidentals within the column, I
have collected examples and intend to put them on my webserver).

Anyway I am a bit confused about why the turn did not appear
between the notes c' and des'

An easy workaround would be to push the markup with spaces.

I hope this working example will help others too.

Regards/Donald



%!Lilypond

\version "2.4.5"

ViolinoI = {
c'8.^\markup { "   " \column
             < \musicglyph #"scripts-mordent" \hspace #0.3
               \musicglyph #"scripts-turn"
    >}
    des'16
    es'2
}


\score {
    <<
      \context Voice = primo {
         \clef treble
         \ViolinoI
      }
   >>
   \layout {
      raggedright = ##t
   }
}



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Re: Placing turn between notes

Mats Bengtsson-6
> Anyway I am a bit confused about why the turn did not appear
> between the notes c' and des'

Do you mean vertically? Or that it's partly above the flat?

    /Mats


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Re: Placing turn between notes

Donald Axel
lilypond <[hidden email]>
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:03:13 +0200
Mats wrote:
> (Donald)
> > Anyway I am a bit confused about why the turn did not appear
> > between the notes c' and des'
>
> Do you mean vertically? Or that it's partly above the flat?

I mean horizontally.

I have produced an example, which is a bit more realistic than the
previously sent, which explains how I understand the meaning of
positioning a turn between notes. I hope the examples are realistic
enough to be of some help. I have placed the source on
http://d-axel.dk/pub/music/



Thank you - to all - for such a nice mailing list and such nice
notes from a computer-system.



Example from the literature (what an ugly link, sorry):

http://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/gsdl/cgi-bin/library?e=d-000-00---0chopin--00-0-0-0prompt-10---4---Document---0-1l--1-en-Zz-1---50-home---001-001-1-0utfZz-8-0&a=d&cl=&d=CHOP122.6


Rondo pour le piano, op. 1, bar 7, and seque; and another, perhaps
better example, is the last non blank page with recapitulation.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~gwp/chopinregister.html





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Re: Placing turn between notes

Donald Axel
In reply to this post by Mats Bengtsson-6


My previous link to Chopin op.1 bar 7 and following

does not give a valid demonstration of the need for
horizontal-to-the-right movement of a turn, so the example is not
really valid, sorry.

Contrary it demonstrates that the figure should "land" on the
middle note (sixteenth-note number 3) and so, in corresponds to
the "early" realization, which was demonstrated in the previous
posting.


I must hunt for another explanation if such exists.

Anyway thanks again for this nice list.


--
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Re: Placing turn between notes

Donald Axel
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:53:21 +0200
dax2 wrote:

>
> My previous link to Chopin op.1 bar 7 and following
>
> does not give a valid demonstration of the need for
> horizontal-to-the-right movement of a turn, so the example is not
> really valid, sorry.


Here is a more relevant explanation inclusive printed music examples:

http://www.iteaonline.org/Journal/32N1/32N1ornamentation.shtml

So I guess my "written-out" examples are valid (or just meaningful).





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Re: Placing turn between notes

Mats Bengtsson-6


dax2 wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:53:21 +0200
> dax2 wrote:
>
>
>>My previous link to Chopin op.1 bar 7 and following
>>
>>does not give a valid demonstration of the need for
>>horizontal-to-the-right movement of a turn, so the example is not
>>really valid, sorry.
>
>
>
> Here is a more relevant explanation inclusive printed music examples:
>
> http://www.iteaonline.org/Journal/32N1/32N1ornamentation.shtml
>
> So I guess my "written-out" examples are valid (or just meaningful).

These examples are really only relevant in this very special context
where you have a written out version of the ornamentation on a second
stave. Otherwise the note spacing will be much narrower. Actually,

If you want the turn to be slightly to the right of the first note, then
you should attach it to the note, just as in your example
"written-out-early.ly" and you could add more spaces before \column:

\version "2.4.5"
{
   c'8.^\markup{"   " \column <
            \teeny \smaller \smaller \flat
            \musicglyph #"scripts-turn"
            \teeny \smaller \smaller \flat
          >}
     ges'16 as'4 |
}


    /Mats


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