organ - off topic

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organ - off topic

Gianmaria Lari
Sorry if I ask this question here. I do it as usual because I have a lot of consideration for the people who write on this group and I'm sure someone can help me.

I'm curious to know if a pipe organ (mechanical) can have a sustain pedal and a sostenuto pedal like a piano. I had a look online but I have not been able to find it.

Thanks a lot!
gianmaria
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Re: organ - off topic

Lukas-Fabian Moser

Hi Gianmaria,

Am 01.10.20 um 10:32 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:

Sorry if I ask this question here. I do it as usual because I have a lot of consideration for the people who write on this group and I'm sure someone can help me.

I'm curious to know if a pipe organ (mechanical) can have a sustain pedal and a sostenuto pedal like a piano. I had a look online but I have not been able to find it.

Not that I know of.

Or, to be more precise:

  • The _soft_ pedal (left, una corda) does indeed have a rough equivalent on many organs, namely the "Schweller": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swell_box
  • The _sostenuto_ pedal (middle) can, as far as I know, only be faked using mechanical devices holding down some keys. And of course, keys may be stuck also without the player intending it.
  • The _damper_ pedal (right, sustain) is built-in to most organs by virtue of the acoustics of the church build around many organs, drowning the music in a sea of lingering pitches ;-)

Lukas

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Re: organ - off topic

J Martin Rushton
In reply to this post by Gianmaria Lari
A sustain pedal wouldn't be possible, since an organ has no dampers.  An
organ pipe sounds just as long as the key and stop send air to it.  A
sostenuto mechanism might be possible, though personally I've never
heard of one, by simply keeping the key or part of the linkage
depressed.  Your question is interesting though, since it appears you
are looking at the wrong end of the telescope!  sostenuto was developed
to allow the piano to emulate the organ.  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_pedals#Sostenuto_pedal et seq. for
more info.

Regards,
Martin

On 01/10/2020 09:32, Gianmaria Lari wrote:

> Sorry if I ask this question here. I do it as usual because I have a lot
> of consideration for the people who write on this group and I'm sure
> someone can help me.
>
> I'm curious to know if a pipe organ (mechanical) can have a sustain
> pedal and a sostenuto pedal like a piano. I had a look online but I have
> not been able to find it.
>
> Thanks a lot!
> gianmaria

--
J Martin Rushton MBCS

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Re: organ - off topic

J Martin Rushton
In reply to this post by Lukas-Fabian Moser
"the church built around many organs" - I like your priorities!  I got
in trouble once for similarly suggesting that the purpose of a cathedral
was to support the bell tower (we were in the ringing chamber at the
time). :-o

On 01/10/2020 10:02, Lukas-Fabian Moser wrote:

> Hi Gianmaria,
>
> Am 01.10.20 um 10:32 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
>
>> Sorry if I ask this question here. I do it as usual because I have a
>> lot of consideration for the people who write on this group and I'm
>> sure someone can help me.
>>
>> I'm curious to know if a pipe organ (mechanical) can have a sustain
>> pedal and a sostenuto pedal like a piano. I had a look online but I
>> have not been able to find it.
>
> Not that I know of.
>
> Or, to be more precise:
>
>   * The _soft_ pedal (left, una corda) does indeed have a rough
>     equivalent on many organs, namely the "Schweller":
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swell_box
>   * The _sostenuto_ pedal (middle) can, as far as I know, only be faked
>     using mechanical devices holding down some keys. And of course, keys
>     may be stuck also without the player intending it.
>   * The _damper_ pedal (right, sustain) is built-in to most organs by
>     virtue of the acoustics of the church build around many organs,
>     drowning the music in a sea of lingering pitches ;-)
>
> Lukas
>

--
J Martin Rushton MBCS

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Re: organ - off topic

fictagirl
Some organs have a toy stop emulating bagpipes, which is a single lever that activates two drone pipes (reeds): they are either on continuously, or off. And organ tuners commonly use a key weight to depress individual keys while they are tuning, if they have to tune without an assistant. There are contemporary organ pieces that use multiple key weights for special effects.

> On 1 Oct 2020, at 10:37, J Martin Rushton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> "the church built around many organs" - I like your priorities!  I got in trouble once for similarly suggesting that the purpose of a cathedral was to support the bell tower (we were in the ringing chamber at the time). :-o
>
> On 01/10/2020 10:02, Lukas-Fabian Moser wrote:
>> Hi Gianmaria,
>> Am 01.10.20 um 10:32 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
>>> Sorry if I ask this question here. I do it as usual because I have a lot of consideration for the people who write on this group and I'm sure someone can help me.
>>>
>>> I'm curious to know if a pipe organ (mechanical) can have a sustain pedal and a sostenuto pedal like a piano. I had a look online but I have not been able to find it.
>> Not that I know of.
>> Or, to be more precise:
>>  * The _soft_ pedal (left, una corda) does indeed have a rough
>>    equivalent on many organs, namely the "Schweller":
>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swell_box
>>  * The _sostenuto_ pedal (middle) can, as far as I know, only be faked
>>    using mechanical devices holding down some keys. And of course, keys
>>    may be stuck also without the player intending it.
>>  * The _damper_ pedal (right, sustain) is built-in to most organs by
>>    virtue of the acoustics of the church build around many organs,
>>    drowning the music in a sea of lingering pitches ;-)
>> Lukas
>
> --
> J Martin Rushton MBCS
>


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Re: organ - off topic

Gianmaria Lari
Thanks Martin, Moser and Frauke!

A few days ago I tried to think of a mechanical system to implement the "sustain" and the "sustained" pedal on an *accordion*. 

I found some solutions that didn't seem particularly ingenious and that at least theoretically could work.

So I wondered if these pedals already existed on some organs where there are less size weight issues compared to an accordion.

As you say, probably the reason why these pedals are not there (or are not common) is not a technical one; it's that they are simply not useful or not useful enough on an organ.

Gianmaria

On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 at 13:36, Frauke Jurgensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some organs have a toy stop emulating bagpipes, which is a single lever that activates two drone pipes (reeds): they are either on continuously, or off. And organ tuners commonly use a key weight to depress individual keys while they are tuning, if they have to tune without an assistant. There are contemporary organ pieces that use multiple key weights for special effects.

> On 1 Oct 2020, at 10:37, J Martin Rushton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> "the church built around many organs" - I like your priorities!  I got in trouble once for similarly suggesting that the purpose of a cathedral was to support the bell tower (we were in the ringing chamber at the time). :-o
>
> On 01/10/2020 10:02, Lukas-Fabian Moser wrote:
>> Hi Gianmaria,
>> Am 01.10.20 um 10:32 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
>>> Sorry if I ask this question here. I do it as usual because I have a lot of consideration for the people who write on this group and I'm sure someone can help me.
>>>
>>> I'm curious to know if a pipe organ (mechanical) can have a sustain pedal and a sostenuto pedal like a piano. I had a look online but I have not been able to find it.
>> Not that I know of.
>> Or, to be more precise:
>>  * The _soft_ pedal (left, una corda) does indeed have a rough
>>    equivalent on many organs, namely the "Schweller":
>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swell_box
>>  * The _sostenuto_ pedal (middle) can, as far as I know, only be faked
>>    using mechanical devices holding down some keys. And of course, keys
>>    may be stuck also without the player intending it.
>>  * The _damper_ pedal (right, sustain) is built-in to most organs by
>>    virtue of the acoustics of the church build around many organs,
>>    drowning the music in a sea of lingering pitches ;-)
>> Lukas
>
> --
> J Martin Rushton MBCS
>


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Re: organ - off topic

Werner LEMBERG
In reply to this post by fictagirl

>>>  * The _soft_ pedal (left, una corda) does indeed have a rough
>>>    equivalent on many organs, namely the "Schweller":
>>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swell_box

There is another one: The most natural damper for an organ is the main
entrance door of a church...


     Werner

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Re: organ - off topic

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Gianmaria Lari
Modern pipe organs may be MIDI controlled, and can have any controls following from that,  including control from a laptop. In this video, this is done for the largest pipe organ in Chicago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHdFAm7g7E


> On 1 Oct 2020, at 10:32, Gianmaria Lari <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm curious to know if a pipe organ (mechanical) can have a sustain pedal and a sostenuto pedal like a piano. I had a look online but I have not been able to find it.



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Re: organ - off topic

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Gianmaria Lari
Gianmaria Lari <[hidden email]> writes:

> Thanks Martin, Moser and Frauke!
>
> A few days ago I tried to think of a mechanical system to implement the
> "sustain" and the "sustained" pedal on an *accordion*.
>
> I found some solutions that didn't seem particularly ingenious and that at
> least theoretically could work.
>
> So I wondered if these pedals already existed on some organs where there
> are less size weight issues compared to an accordion.
>
> As you say, probably the reason why these pedals are not there (or are not
> common) is not a technical one; it's that they are simply not useful or not
> useful enough on an organ.

I've seen a piece where an organist fixed keys in place with some kind
of wedge that seemed designed for that purpose.

--
David Kastrup