new website: initial comments

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new website: initial comments

Graham Percival-3
Here's a very rough initial draft of our new website:
http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html

Any comments or offers of help?  At the moment, I'm looking for
overall design issues, like "you should have a `blarg' section on
the main menu" or "I can't find the current documentation on this
new website".

If you have any requests, go ahead and list them, although (as
always) I will highly filter these requests with respect to our
available resources.  Requests which are accompanied by offers of
help will almost certainly make it through the filter.  :)

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: new website: initial comments

Daniel Hulme-4
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:15:35PM -0700, Graham Percival wrote:
> Any comments or offers of help?  At the moment, I'm looking for
> overall design issues, like "you should have a `blarg' section on
> the main menu" or "I can't find the current documentation on this
> new website".

The three colours you base the design on are good choices. Used together
they can be a bit startling, particularly when they are in big blocks
like on the "documentation" page. I think the page would better reflect
Lilypond's aesthetic superiority if you stuck to one major colour, at
least per page.

--
Sufficiently advanced humour is indistinguishable from tedium.
corollary:
Humour distinguishable from tedium is insufficiently advanced.
http://surreal.istic.org/                                           Moi?

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Re: new website: initial comments

Federico Bruni-3
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
Graham Percival wrote:
> Here's a very rough initial draft of our new website:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>
> Any comments or offers of help?  At the moment, I'm looking for
> overall design issues, like "you should have a `blarg' section on
> the main menu" or "I can't find the current documentation on this
> new website".
>

I like very much the horizontal bar with the links to all the main docs.
And it looks nice also..

Actually, I like the three-color sections in the main page: they help
highlighting what's relevant for each different user..

I would just change some minor things:
- I would use the same height for the Beginner and Normal users divs
- I'll add some padding above the "Advanced users" title
- I would also change the mustard yellow color of the Beginners div
into some less "depressing" color ;-)
What about this (or similar): FFCC00  ?

Cheers,
Federico


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Re: new website: initial comments

pnorcks
In reply to this post by Daniel Hulme-4
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 08:44:23AM +0100, Daniel Hulme wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:15:35PM -0700, Graham Percival wrote:
> > Any comments or offers of help?  At the moment, I'm looking for
> > overall design issues, like "you should have a `blarg' section on
> > the main menu" or "I can't find the current documentation on this
> > new website".
>
> The three colours you base the design on are good choices. Used together
> they can be a bit startling, particularly when they are in big blocks
> like on the "documentation" page. I think the page would better reflect
> Lilypond's aesthetic superiority if you stuck to one major colour, at
> least per page.

Thanks for the feedback!

The color scheme is in a state of flux, so these are definitely not
the final colors; my initial focus has been on the page layout.

Do you think the *major* color should be green, like in the
documentation design?

Thanks,
Patrick


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Re: new website: initial comments

pnorcks
In reply to this post by Federico Bruni-3
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:11:31AM +0200, Federico Bruni wrote:

> Graham Percival wrote:
>> Here's a very rough initial draft of our new website:
>> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>>
>> Any comments or offers of help?  At the moment, I'm looking for
>> overall design issues, like "you should have a `blarg' section on
>> the main menu" or "I can't find the current documentation on this
>> new website".
>>
>
> I like very much the horizontal bar with the links to all the main docs.
> And it looks nice also..

Thanks!

> Actually, I like the three-color sections in the main page: they help  
> highlighting what's relevant for each different user..
>
> I would just change some minor things:
> - I would use the same height for the Beginner and Normal users divs
> - I'll add some padding above the "Advanced users" title
> - I would also change the mustard yellow color of the Beginners div into
> some less "depressing" color ;-)
> What about this (or similar): FFCC00  ?

I'll be reworking this page; I'm sure Graham didn't intend for these
to be the final colors.  :-)

IMO, the divs (from left to right) should be

--------------------------------
Beginner --> Normal --> Advanced
--------------------------------

but I will keep your suggestions in mind.  I should have the CSS more
finalized in a few days.

Thanks,
Patrick


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Re: new website: initial comments

Federico Bruni-3
Patrick McCarty wrote:
>  
> IMO, the divs (from left to right) should be
>
> --------------------------------
> Beginner --> Normal --> Advanced
> --------------------------------
>

Ok, so three columns.
I guess this is better


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Re: new website: initial comments

Hans Aberg
In reply to this post by pnorcks
On 23 Jun 2009, at 10:19, Patrick McCarty wrote:

> The color scheme is in a state of flux, so these are definitely not
> the final colors; my initial focus has been on the page layout.
>
> Do you think the *major* color should be green, like in the
> documentation design?

I think the yellow to intense when reading the text on it. The  
LilyPond logo could get some more color. Here are some examples:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymphaea
   http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Nymphaea&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=

   Hans




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Re: new website: initial comments

Graham Percival-3
In reply to this post by pnorcks
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 01:34:56AM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:11:31AM +0200, Federico Bruni wrote:
> > Actually, I like the three-color sections in the main page: they help  
> > highlighting what's relevant for each different user..
>
> IMO, the divs (from left to right) should be
>
> --------------------------------
> Beginner --> Normal --> Advanced
> --------------------------------

Actually, I was intending (and it shows on my screen)

Beginner       Normal
.              .
.              .
.              .
.              .

       Advanced
         .
         .


But this if fundamentally not my job.  I tagged the <div>s with
"docs-beginner", "docs-normal", and "docs-advanced", so I leave
the rest to others.  :)

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: new website: initial comments

David Stocker
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
Nice new layout.

I have only two suggestions:

   1. Perhaps justified text (without hyphenation?) would be better for
      pages with large with paragraphs of text. I'm thinking of the
      /Engraving Essay/. I think it's cleaner looking and fits better
      with LilyPond's ethos of beautiful typography.
   2. On the documentation page, maybe it would be better to choose a
      wording other than "Normal Users" for the second section of
      documentation links. This might imply that "Beginning Users" are
      somehow /abnormal/. Maybe "Regular Users" or "Experienced Users"
      would be a better choice.

I know the second one seems nitpicky, but LilyPond is becoming a mature
'brand' and when you're advertising a brand, every aspect of your image
should be carefully considered.

Nice site. Thanks for all the effort.

David

Graham Percival wrote:

> Here's a very rough initial draft of our new website:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>
> Any comments or offers of help?  At the moment, I'm looking for
> overall design issues, like "you should have a `blarg' section on
> the main menu" or "I can't find the current documentation on this
> new website".
>
> If you have any requests, go ahead and list them, although (as
> always) I will highly filter these requests with respect to our
> available resources.  Requests which are accompanied by offers of
> help will almost certainly make it through the filter.  :)
>
> Cheers,
> - Graham
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>
>  


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Re: new website: initial comments

Tim McNamara

On Jun 23, 2009, at 7:11 AM, David Stocker wrote:

>   2. On the documentation page, maybe it would be better to choose a
>      wording other than "Normal Users" for the second section of
>      documentation links. This might imply that "Beginning Users" are
>      somehow /abnormal/. Maybe "Regular Users" or "Experienced Users"
>      would be a better choice.

How about "New Users," "Intermediate Users" and "Expert Users?"

> I know the second one seems nitpicky, but LilyPond is becoming a  
> mature 'brand' and when you're advertising a brand, every aspect of  
> your image should be carefully considered.

That's true.  I like to look of the new Web page so far.

I hate cluttered web pages (and hence I don't like most web pages-  
few Web site designers seem to have much knowledge about visual  
perception and lots of knowledge about JavaScript, and so they play  
to their strength) so I like the nice clean look proposed here.  The  
image on the old page is too dark and rather depressing to my eyes.  
Putting color behind the top navigation bar separates it from the  
rest of the content and makes it's function more obvious.

The location of elements on the Web page should flow logically.  Most  
Western users will tend to start at the top center, them move down  
and to the upper right as if reading a newspaper headline and then  
the lead article.  I would imagine that those reading habits are  
different for people who read languages with different text flow, and  
I have little idea how to accommodate that (does LilyPond have a user  
base that reads Hebrew, Arabic, Farsi, Chinese, etc. which might make  
this an issue?).

Organization into clear columns (e.g., navigation on left, content in  
the center and either extending to the right side of the page or  
another column on the right with links) makes it simple for the eye  
to follow.  I prefer the two column approach to minimize the need to  
scroll down every 10 seconds while reading; this also simplifies  
layout issues.

Color coding also makes it easier for the eye to follow- beginning  
user information in Color 1, intermediate user information in Color  
2, expert user information in Color 3.  This could simply be done by  
changing the colors behind the navigation bar at the top of the page  
to reflect the skill level for that page.  Speaking of this, the  
layout on the Documentation page needs tweaking as the colored boxes  
for graded user information are different sizes and look like two are  
sitting on top of the third.

On the "Learning Manual" page on my computer, the second navigation  
bar (starting with "(main)") wraps to a second line and covers part  
of the first line of the text.  The wrapped part contains "Other  
Documentation" and "Other Versions."  I think that could be minimized  
by having a set of targeted color-coded pages with links and menus  
specific to the user level.  There is no need IMHO for "Other  
Documentation," "Other Versions,"  "Internals Reference," "Changes,"  
etc. on the newbies page.  Having that stuff just adds layers of  
confusion for new users through TMI.  Those things become gradually  
more useful as the users' skills improve.   Someone writing their  
first very simple score and just trying to get four bars of music to  
render correctly does not need a link to the Snippet Library yet.  
But the Intermediate users do need access to that information.  
Information on Scheme would be for "Expert Users."  And so on.

Text should scale appropriately if the user chooses to override font  
size, like I do with my middle aged eyes on a 12" laptop screen.  
Many Web sites, in their effort to control layout precisely, scale  
badly and end up offering the user a choice between tiny unreadable  
but correctly placed text or legible but overlapped and hence  
unreadable text.  Lose-lose.  Hopefully we can avoid this.

If we see layout problems with specific computers, browsers, etc.,  
maybe it would be helpful to send screenshots to a single point  
person to provide demonstration of the problem.  Who will this person  
be?

I hope this is helpful.


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Re: new website: initial comments

Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
Graham Percival wrote:
> Any comments or offers of help?  
>  

Several times had we discussions on the list that the recommended
editors (namely JEdit/LilyPondTool and Frescobaldi) should have their
download links on the homepage. Also some screenshots of them (like
https://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=100536 and
http://frescobaldi.org/uguide/images/uguide2-small.png) could make a
better presentation of LilyPond itself.

Where could these go?

Bert



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Re: new website: initial comments

Han-Wen Nienhuys-3
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
The page needs to be optimized for people that don't know what
lilypond is; for this reason, the current page has a the essay and the
'switch to lily' stories as the 2 main stories.  Currently, someone
unfamiliar with the (new) site does not know where to start.


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Graham
Percival<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here's a very rough initial draft of our new website:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>
> Any comments or offers of help?  At the moment, I'm looking for
> overall design issues, like "you should have a `blarg' section on
> the main menu" or "I can't find the current documentation on this
> new website".
>
> If you have any requests, go ahead and list them, although (as
> always) I will highly filter these requests with respect to our
> available resources.  Requests which are accompanied by offers of
> help will almost certainly make it through the filter.  :)
>
> Cheers,
> - Graham
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>



--
Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: new website: initial comments

phorgan1
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
Graham Percival wrote:
> Here's a very rough initial draft of our new website:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>  
The purple background as used on the documentation page has terrible
contrast/clash with the blue of unvisited links on Firefox on Linux
making it really hard to read.  It makes me squint because my brain
thinks something's out of focus.  Then, after you visit them the visited
link color is too close to the purple--they almost disappear.  
Additionally, the use of dark colors with black text makes my eyes work
to hard.  The following choices are more readable on my machine while
giving a similar effect.

..docs-beginner {
  float: left;
  width: 48%;
  border: 1pt solid black;
  background-color: #ffff99;
}

..docs-normal {
  float: right;
  width: 48%;
  border: 1pt solid black;
  background-color: #ccffee;
}

..docs-advanced {
  display: block;
  margin: 0 auto;
  border: 1pt solid black;
  background-color: #ffddff;
}

Patrick (the other)



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Re: new website: initial comments

Ivo Bouwmans
In reply to this post by Graham Percival-3
Hallo Graham,

> Here's a very rough initial draft of our new website:
> http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html
>
> Any comments or offers of help?

The main structure is very clear: it's easy to find what is where. I  
particularly like the division in the documents section, which brings  
you to the right info.

The font size of the sub menus is a bit small, I think.

On the Mac OS X page a ref is asking to be fixed. You could link to  
the page that I maintain for Mac users (www.ivo.bouwmans.name/lilypondleopard)
, which lists various ways to use LP on Mac, and links to sites like  
that of LilyPondTool.

If you prefer not to link to an external site, I could put the info on  
the new LP site later, and maintain that. In the meantime, a link  
could help.

You could consider not mentioning that the menus "no longer function"  
on Mac. LP works well, much the same as it does on other platforms.  
The only thing users need to know is that LP is not a  
"doubleclickable" application - and some instructions on how to use it.
--
Vriendelijke groeten,  =  Best wishes,  =  Afablajn salutojn,

Ivo


www.ivo.bouwmans.name






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Re: new website: initial comments

Graham Percival-3
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 08:41:00PM +0200, Ivo Bouwmans wrote:
> On the Mac OS X page a ref is asking to be fixed. You could link to the
> page that I maintain for Mac users
> (www.ivo.bouwmans.name/lilypondleopard), which lists various ways to use
> LP on Mac, and links to sites like that of LilyPondTool.
>
> If you prefer not to link to an external site, I could put the info on  
> the new LP site later, and maintain that. In the meantime, a link could
> help.

I would rather not link to an external site, but I haven't decided
where to put this info -- it might go lower on this page, or it
might be an different page.  If it's on a different page, then I
need to consider how that would fit in with the overall menu
structure.

> You could consider not mentioning that the menus "no longer function" on
> Mac.

Well, I wanted to make the point that it still works in 10.3 and
10.4.  Of course, if Christian's efforts work on 10.5, then such
warnings (and your page) may no longer be necessary!  It would be
awesome if 2.14 could include out-of-the-box GUIs on 10.5.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: new website: initial comments

Ivo Bouwmans
Hallo Graham,

> Well, I wanted to make the point that it still works in 10.3 and
> 10.4.

You're right - of course.

> Of course, if Christian's efforts work on 10.5, then such
> warnings (and your page) may no longer be necessary!  It would be
> awesome if 2.14 could include out-of-the-box GUIs on 10.5.


That *would* be awesome!
Looking forward to removing my page,
;-)
--
Vriendelijke groeten,  =  Best wishes,  =  Afablajn salutojn,

Ivo


www.ivo.bouwmans.name






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Re: new website: initial comments

Graham Percival-3
In reply to this post by phorgan1
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:39:44AM -0700, Patrick Horgan wrote:

> ..docs-beginner {
>  float: left;
>  width: 48%;
>  border: 1pt solid black;
>  background-color: #ffff99;
> }
>
> ..docs-normal {
>  float: right;
>  width: 48%;
>  border: 1pt solid black;
>  background-color: #ccffee;
> }
>
> ..docs-advanced {
>  display: block;
>  margin: 0 auto;
>  border: 1pt solid black;
>  background-color: #ffddff;
> }

Thanks, committed with some modifications.

Patrick (t'other Patrick), I accidently ended up with
  introduction
  ------------
  regular|infrequent
  use    |use

but decided I quite liked it.  Final call goes to you, of course.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: new website: initial comments

Hans Aberg
In reply to this post by Han-Wen Nienhuys-3
On 23 Jun 2009, at 18:46, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:

> The page needs to be optimized for people that don't know what
> lilypond is; for this reason, the current page has a the essay and the
> 'switch to lily' stories as the 2 main stories.  Currently, someone
> unfamiliar with the (new) site does not know where to start.

What about adding a cool typeset example, there certainly is space for  
it, and perhaps when clicking on it, one gets to a mini-tutorial on  
how to typeset it? I have found that when I encounter a new program,  
this is what I want to see. Often, that is found on the Wikipedia pages.

Other sites have a lot of links on the home page. Some examples:
   http://haskell.org/
   http://www.opengroup.org/
   http://www.huygens-fokker.org/
   http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/

   Hans




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Re: new website: initial comments

Graham Percival-3
In reply to this post by David Stocker
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 08:11:05AM -0400, David Stocker wrote:
>   1. Perhaps justified text (without hyphenation?) would be better for
>      pages with large with paragraphs of text. I'm thinking of the
>      /Engraving Essay/. I think it's cleaner looking and fits better
>      with LilyPond's ethos of beautiful typography.

Patrick, is this possible?  If so, should I wrap long sections in
any special <div>s?

Dunno if you noticed, but I made the texinfo macros more general;
we can now
  @div-class{arbitrary-text}
without changing macros.itexi.  So it'd be easy to add
  @div-class{long-text}


Or conversely, perhaps justified text should be default in the
body, and simply override the justification inside docs-*,
quickSummary, etc.  I think I favor this, actually, since it
enforces even more the separation of content from presentation.


>   2. On the documentation page, maybe it would be better to choose a
>      wording other than "Normal Users" for the second section of
>      documentation links. This might imply that "Beginning Users" are
>      somehow /abnormal/. Maybe "Regular Users" or "Experienced Users"
>      would be a better choice.

Thanks, done.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: new website: initial comments

pnorcks
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Graham
Percival<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 08:11:05AM -0400, David Stocker wrote:
>>   1. Perhaps justified text (without hyphenation?) would be better for
>>      pages with large with paragraphs of text. I'm thinking of the
>>      /Engraving Essay/. I think it's cleaner looking and fits better
>>      with LilyPond's ethos of beautiful typography.
>
> Patrick, is this possible?  If so, should I wrap long sections in
> any special <div>s?

Yes.  You can do

div.long-text { text-align: justify; }

> Or conversely, perhaps justified text should be default in the
> body, and simply override the justification inside docs-*,
> quickSummary, etc.  I think I favor this, actually, since it
> enforces even more the separation of content from presentation.

I'm okay with that too.  Since you haven't added all the content yet,
I think the number of paragraphs deserving justification will outweigh
those that don't.

Thanks,
Patrick


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