musescore lands sponsoring?

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

Wasil Sergejczyk

There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough.
Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult
to change it, i think.

for me, as a beginner, notes syntax wasn't the difficult part (then again, i'm used to write programming code), but page layout, staffs, voices, etc. so, i ended up by composing a set of templates for my needs and forgetting about that stuff. so, an online collection of such templates would smooth a learning curve alot, imho.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

Ben Luo-3
Totally agree Wasil. A beautiful sheet, the syntax is only very small part. Lilypond make other default setting great. We just focus on music and syntax. These are the key of music.

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Wasil Sergejczyk <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough.
Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult
to change it, i think.

for me, as a beginner, notes syntax wasn't the difficult part (then again, i'm used to write programming code), but page layout, staffs, voices, etc. so, i ended up by composing a set of templates for my needs and forgetting about that stuff. so, an online collection of such templates would smooth a learning curve alot, imho.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

mike@apollinemike.com
In reply to this post by Lucas Gonze
On 29 mai 2012, at 23:56, Lucas Gonze wrote:

> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Nils <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the musescore twitter account or something like this).
>> It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each Lilypond release.
>
> Musecore and Lilypond are both open source. A GUI would benefit
> Lilypond. There's no reason for a Lilypond person to not work on .ly
> export from the Musecore front end.
>
> I feel like this conversation is unnecessarily competitive. These
> projects have a *lot* in common. I am rooting for both.

I know I'm rehashing old ground, but I think that these projects stand to mutually benefit from each other if and only if they evolve in "natural" directions given their goals.

MuseScore reminds me of Finale and Sibelius and it seems like it should do this as best as possible.

LilyPond needs to be an excellent typesetter (like SCORE).  It needs to be for people who put layout above all else.  In general, the idea of LilyPond is to build a master engraver - a virtual person who, using various directives, creates a score following hundreds of years of engraving knowledge.  Like any master engraver, this involves trial and error and testing out multiple possibilities, which is exactly what LilyPond does - for any slur you see in a score, LilyPond is testing between 50 and 100 slurs to see which one fits best.  These tests take time and, if they were done for every change in a WYSIWYG score (because every change in a score has the potential to effect every element of a score) it would slow the score down immensely.

LilyPond 2.18 (yes, 2.18, not 2.16) will contain various changes in lyrics and skylines that build even more engraver knowledge into LilyPond, which will slow it down by about 1-5 seconds for a 60 second score.  These scores will look less airy in many cases.  These types of features are the ones that I think will improve LilyPond's typesetting most.

So, with respect to your comment above, I too am rooting for both programs.  I think what they have in common is that they both produce scores.  However, I'd encourage everyone to help both programs distinguish themselves through their differences.  The nightmare scenario, in my opinion, is that the two programs, competing over a user-base somewhere in the middle, converge.  To paraphrase what Bill Clinton said of Washington DC, it'd be like "A combination of northern hospitality and southern efficiency."

Cheers,
MS
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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Carl Sorensen
Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> writes:

> Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>  
>> Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
>> sponsoring project?  What are we missing?
>
> Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it
> happen.

It is not just that.  There are also a few advantages:

a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation
   programs making use of an open standard.

b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an editor
   of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as "You
   can use a lathe of your choice".

c) "Ok, let's assume I have a MIDI keyboard hooked up to my computer for
   note entry.  How do I go from there?" "Bring the keyboard back to the
   store.  We are not going to use it anyway."

d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry in?
   Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
   Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be using
   anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
   using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question."

--
David Kastrup


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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

Lucas Gonze
In reply to this post by mike@apollinemike.com
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 1:16 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I know I'm rehashing old ground, but I think that these projects stand to mutually benefit from each other if and only if they evolve in "natural" directions given their goals.  ...  In general, the idea of LilyPond is to build a master engraver - a virtual person who, using various directives, creates a score following hundreds of years of engraving knowledge.

There's a lot of wisdom in your comment, Mike. I agree that the best
thing would be for Musecore and Lilypond to define themselves in
complementary ways.

David, given the idea that the soul of Lilypond is engraving, I don't
know if having musescore import Lilypond syntax is absolutely
necessary or even absolutely possible. For them to do that would
require using Lilypond as a library and constantly updating the import
routines. The insane and incredible richness of Lilypond makes a 1-1
translation nearly impossible, so Musescore would have to support only
a subset of Lilypond features.

Not that I mean to convince you to invest spare time you don't have
into musescore integration - apologies if I give that impression.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

janek.lilypond
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:31 PM, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There are also a few advantages [of using MuseScore]:
>
> a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation
>   programs making use of an open standard.

Indeed, having MusicXML exprort can give Lily more popularity.

> b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an editor
>   of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as "You
>   can use a lathe of your choice".

LOL :D
how true!  Valentin, that could be the next quote of the month :)

> d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry in?
>   Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
>   Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be using
>   anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
>   using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question."

Good point.

That's why our KickStarter project (at least the first one) should be
a not-very-long piece for chamber orchestra.  Or string quartet.
Something with 3-6 staves and 5-15 pages.

cheers,
Janek

PS there actually is one serious advantage of text input in a project
like this: we could set up a git repository for it.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

jancsika
In reply to this post by Jan Nieuwenhuizen




> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 17:31:49 +0200
> From: David Kastrup <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>>  Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke <at> gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>  
>>>  Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
>>>  sponsoring project?  What are we missing?
>>
>>  Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it
>>  happen.
>
> It is not just that.  There are also a few advantages:
>
> a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation
>    programs making use of an open standard.

They can check-out any time they like,
But can they ever leave? :)

Let's say I look at their score and see some bad spacing among some set of
sixteenths (and there is some bad spacing, btw).  Then I see a glaring
enharmonic spelling of a leading-tone that the MIDI-entry got wrong and
the editors missed (also there, btw).  Great, I say-- I'll just import the corresponding
MusicXML into Finale or whatever, do the tweaks, then export so that I can
send the patch back to the project for inclusion in the next version.

Is music software X guaranteed to keep the rest of the score exactly the same,
except for the parts I tweaked when I do the export back to MusicXML?  If so,
that's an impressive open standard.

>
> b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an editor
>    of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as
> "You
>    can use a lathe of your choice".
>
> c) "Ok, let's assume I have a MIDI keyboard hooked up to my computer
> for
>    note entry.  How do I go from there?" "Bring the keyboard back to
> the
>    store.  We are not going to use it anyway."
>
> d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry in?
>    Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
>    Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be using
>    anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
>    using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of
> question."

One thing I was thinking was that you could use tags in Lilypond to make
editions.  Let's say someone had some crackerjack fingerings from various
concert pianists they collected.  You could have all those available as pdfs while
they all derive from the same codebase, so that when someone finally fixes the
erroneous d-flat they only need to fix it once.  But I don't see how you could do
that with Musescore.  If one wanted to add dynamics, for example, they'd be
forced to fork the entire notation project and manually keep up with revisions
to the original, no?

-Jonathan

>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

Urs Liska-4
In reply to this post by janek.lilypond
We'll think about this (and some more, when I'm back and we're ready with our current job ...). OK, Janek?
Best
Urs



"Janek Warchoł" <[hidden email]> schrieb:

>On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:31 PM, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There are also a few advantages [of using MuseScore]:
>>
>> a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of
>notation
>>   programs making use of an open standard.
>
>Indeed, having MusicXML exprort can give Lily more popularity.
>
>> b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an
>editor
>>   of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as
>"You
>>   can use a lathe of your choice".
>
>LOL :D
>how true!  Valentin, that could be the next quote of the month :)
>
>> d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry
>in?
>>   Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
>>   Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be
>using
>>   anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
>>   using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of
>question."
>
>Good point.
>
>That's why our KickStarter project (at least the first one) should be
>a not-very-long piece for chamber orchestra.  Or string quartet.
>Something with 3-6 staves and 5-15 pages.
>


>cheers,
>Janek
>
>PS there actually is one serious advantage of text input in a project
>like this: we could set up a git repository for it.
>
>_______________________________________________
>lilypond-user mailing list
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--
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

janek.lilypond
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Urs Liska <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We'll think about this (and some more, when I'm back and we're ready with our current job ...). OK, Janek?

ok

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