modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

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modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

edes

Hello, list.

For some reason, when using modern-straight-flag or flat-flag, flags are
much thicker than normal beams, and the distance is also much bigger.

Straight and flat flags were widely used by modern composers like Pierre
Boulez and Karlheinz Stockhausen, and in all cases flags were treated like
beams, with the same distance and the same width.

Please see the attached examples and images (I'm using 2.12.0 from git).

BTW, the first flag does not align with the end of the stem.

Best,

e.

8< -----------------------------------------------------------

\version "2.21.0"

\layout {
  \context {
    \Score
      \override Flag.stencil = #flat-flag
  }
}

\relative c' {
<<
  {
    r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. }
  \\
  { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. }
>>
}

8< -----------------------------------------------------------

\version "2.21.0"

\layout {
  \context {
    \Score
      \override Flag.stencil = #modern-straight-flag
  }
}

\relative c' {
<<
  {
    r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. }
  \\
  { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. }
>>
}

8< -----------------------------------------------------------



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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

Simon Albrecht-2
Thanks, this has been entered as
<https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5412/>.

Best, Simon


On 27.08.2018 01:08, edes wrote:

> Hello, list.
>
> For some reason, when using modern-straight-flag or flat-flag, flags are
> much thicker than normal beams, and the distance is also much bigger.
>
> Straight and flat flags were widely used by modern composers like Pierre
> Boulez and Karlheinz Stockhausen, and in all cases flags were treated like
> beams, with the same distance and the same width.
>
> Please see the attached examples and images (I'm using 2.12.0 from git).
>
> BTW, the first flag does not align with the end of the stem.
>
> Best,
>
> e.
>
> 8< -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> \version "2.21.0"
>
> \layout {
>    \context {
>      \Score
>        \override Flag.stencil = #flat-flag
>    }
> }
>
> \relative c' {
> <<
>    {
>      r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. }
>    \\
>    { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. }
> }
>
> 8< -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> \version "2.21.0"
>
> \layout {
>    \context {
>      \Score
>        \override Flag.stencil = #modern-straight-flag
>    }
> }
>
> \relative c' {
> <<
>    {
>      r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. }
>    \\
>    { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. }
> }
>
> 8< -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bug-lilypond mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond


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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

edes
In reply to this post by edes

Hello, list.

Some time ago I reported a bug with modern-straight and flat flags, and it
was accepted as issue 5412:

https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5412/

I only have a very basic knowledge of lilypond, but I assume that this
problem happens at the font level, and that there is no way to improve the
output by tweaking the lilypond code?

If this is the case, could you please point me to the relevant place in the
source code? I'm not a programmer (and I always found scheme to be
particularly obscure), but I could try to adjust values by trial and
error, and see if I can get a more decent output.

Thanks.

ee



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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

Carl Sorensen-3


On 2/16/19, 7:22 PM, "edes" <[hidden email]> wrote:

   
    Hello, list.
   
    Some time ago I reported a bug with modern-straight and flat flags, and it
    was accepted as issue 5412:
   
    https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5412/
   
    I only have a very basic knowledge of lilypond, but I assume that this
    problem happens at the font level, and that there is no way to improve the
    output by tweaking the lilypond code?

It turns out that the straight family of  flags is actually implemented in scheme.

The file is scm/flag-styles.scm

The thicknesses are hard-coded at lines 111 (modern-straight-flag), 117 (old-straight-flag), and 122 (flat-flag).

The names of the variables (which show up only as numbers in these calls) are found at line 60.

Unfortunately, at this point there does not appear to be any grob property for  the thickness, so there is not a straightforward override.  You'll need to edit the scheme file.  Or, you could define your own straight flag style by copying (and altering) one of the flag definitions.
   
If you get some better numbers, and especially if you have some evidence from nicely-engraved scores, it's likely that we would replace the defaults.

Thanks,

Carl
   

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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

Thomas Morley-2
Am So., 17. Feb. 2019 um 20:57 Uhr schrieb Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>:

>
>
>
> On 2/16/19, 7:22 PM, "edes" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>     Hello, list.
>
>     Some time ago I reported a bug with modern-straight and flat flags, and it
>     was accepted as issue 5412:
>
>     https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5412/
>
>     I only have a very basic knowledge of lilypond, but I assume that this
>     problem happens at the font level, and that there is no way to improve the
>     output by tweaking the lilypond code?
>
> It turns out that the straight family of  flags is actually implemented in scheme.
>
> The file is scm/flag-styles.scm
>
> The thicknesses are hard-coded at lines 111 (modern-straight-flag), 117 (old-straight-flag), and 122 (flat-flag).
>
> The names of the variables (which show up only as numbers in these calls) are found at line 60.
>
> Unfortunately, at this point there does not appear to be any grob property for  the thickness, so there is not a straightforward override.  You'll need to edit the scheme file.  Or, you could define your own straight flag style by copying (and altering) one of the flag definitions.
>
> If you get some better numbers, and especially if you have some evidence from nicely-engraved scores, it's likely that we would replace the defaults.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl

Hi Carl,

I'm currently working on it.

Better default values are easy to obtain:

#(define-public (flat-flag grob)
  "Flat flag style.  The angles of the flags are both 0 degrees"
  ((straight-flag 0.48 0.81 0 1.0 0 1.0) grob))


Though, there is a design-decision we need to do.

Currently the straight-flags are modeled like default Flag-glyphs.
This means if there are more than 3 flags the spacing is not adjusted
(like for beams). Furthermore the end of the stem and flag match
exactly, as opposed to beams (at least they should, there's a small
discrepancy, already reported by the OP).
If we keep this thinking, than (flat) straight-flags stay different
compared to Beams.

The OP claims straight-flags, especially flat ones, should behave like
Beams. If we follow, than straight-flags need to adjust according to
the amount of flags, like Beams. Furthermore they should be placed so
that the stem ends in the _middle_ of the first flag, as for beams.
Disadvantage would be that a stem with default flag would often have a
different visible length compared to a stem with straight flags.

Speaking only for myself I think the OP is correct saying flat-flags
should behave like Beams, though I don't agree for
modern/old-straight-flags.


So the question is, which route to follow?


I already have code for the mentioned possibilties, but currently I'm
not able to do one thing for flat-flag and a different for other
straight-flags.
In any case the length of beamed and unbeamed Stems is different in
many cases. One would need to tackle Stem not Flag, so a different
issue, imho.


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

edes

el 2019-02-17 a las 21:41 Thomas Morley escribió:

> I'm currently working on it.

Thank you!


> Though, there is a design-decision we need to do.

Indeed...

In general terms, I stand by my original opinion that both flat *and*
modern-straight flags should behave like beams (but I might be missing
something, of course...).

I attach two examples by Stockhausen (Zeitmaße and Klavierstück V, both
Universal Edition). In my opinion, these could very well be taken as a
model. Please see also the short excerpts from two different numbers of
Boulez' Le Marteau sans maître (also UE).

In the example by Crumb (Ancient Voices of Children), there's no
difference between horizontal (flat) flags and beams.

Finally, I attach an example by Kagel. Among many other problems that make
this score ugly, beams and stems are too thin to my taste. But in any
case, they are consistent.

> Disadvantage would be that a stem with default flag would often have a
> different visible length compared to a stem with straight flags.

That is normally a global setting, isn't it? I can't remember right now
any important piece of the repertoire that mixes old and modern flags. But
my knowledge of the repertoire is by no means encyclopaedic.

BTW, in all the examples, stems are noticeably longer than the default in
lilypond, that follows older practices.

I hope these examples will help you find a good general criterion.

Best,

ee




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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

Carl Sorensen-3


On 2/17/19, 7:52 PM, "edes" <[hidden email]> wrote:

   
    el 2019-02-17 a las 21:41 Thomas Morley escribió:
   
    > I'm currently working on it.
   
    Thank you!
   
   
    > Though, there is a design-decision we need to do.
   
    Indeed...
   
    In general terms, I stand by my original opinion that both flat *and*
    modern-straight flags should behave like beams (but I might be missing
    something, of course...).

But the Stockhausen examples you show don't behave like *traditional* beams.  The Stockhausen examples show the flags all coming from the stem at the same point relative to the staff lines.  Traditional beams vary where they are relative to the staff lines (lower ones rest, middle ones straddle, higher ones hang, IIRC).  Since the Stockhausen beams don't live on the staff, they don't have to be concerned about the staff lines, and I suspect they are just one staff-space apart, although I haven't measured carefully.

In the Crumb piece, we can't tell what's happening with the flat flags/beams; they aren't on the staff lines.  But I suspect that they are exactly one staff-space apart, so they don't behave like traditional beams either.

I think this discussion belongs on the -user list, not the bug list, as we're now talking about aesthetics, so I've copied it over there.

Thanks,

Carl

 

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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

edes

el 2019-02-18 a las 05:06 Carl Sorensen escribió:

> But the Stockhausen examples you show don't behave like *traditional*
> beams.  The Stockhausen examples show the flags all coming from the stem
> at the same point relative to the staff lines.  Traditional beams vary
> where they are relative to the staff lines (lower ones rest, middle ones
> straddle, higher ones hang, IIRC).  Since the Stockhausen beams don't
> live on the staff, they don't have to be concerned about the staff
> lines, and I suspect they are just one staff-space apart, although I
> haven't measured carefully.

It's true I was not clear when I said "behave". I meant that horizontal
and straight flags (should) have the same thickness and distance as beams
(when beams are outside the staff, now in lilypond they are thicker and
more separated).

With respect to that, yes, in modern music notation beams are more often
than not located outside the staff. As I mentioned in my previous mail, in
modern music notation, stems are typically much longer than the default in
lilypond.

For straight flags, the criterion seems to be: stems always end in the
middle of a space (or the equivalent outside the staff), and the base of
each additional flag is located one staff-space apart (i.e., also in the
middle of a space).

For examples, please see attached the two excerpts from Le Marteau sans
maître that I forgot to include in my previous mail, and another excerpt
from Zeitmaße.

Best,

ee





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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

edes
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2

el 2019-02-17 a las 21:41 Thomas Morley escribió:

> Speaking only for myself I think the OP is correct saying flat-flags
> should behave like Beams, though I don't agree for
> modern/old-straight-flags.

And now I tend to agree with you... :-)

Both examples I mentioned in my other email (Boulez and Stockhausen)
suggest that for straight flags the total distance between consecutive
flags is one staff-space, and the thickness is staff-space*0.6 (that is, a
separation of staff-space*0.4 between flags). Approximate, of course. But I
modified some flags in Inkscape according to those proportions and they fit
perfectly to the Stockhausen score (in Le Marteau they are a bit thinner,
but the total distance remains one staff-space).

Thank you for looking into this.

ee




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