modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

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modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

 Hello, list. For some reason, when using modern-straight-flag or flat-flag, flags are much thicker than normal beams, and the distance is also much bigger. Straight and flat flags were widely used by modern composers like Pierre Boulez and Karlheinz Stockhausen, and in all cases flags were treated like beams, with the same distance and the same width. Please see the attached examples and images (I'm using 2.12.0 from git). BTW, the first flag does not align with the end of the stem. Best, e. 8< ----------------------------------------------------------- \version "2.21.0" \layout {   \context {     \Score       \override Flag.stencil = #flat-flag   } } \relative c' { <<   {     r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. }   \\   { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. } >> } 8< ----------------------------------------------------------- \version "2.21.0" \layout {   \context {     \Score       \override Flag.stencil = #modern-straight-flag   } } \relative c' { <<   {     r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. }   \\   { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. } >> } 8< ----------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ bug-lilypond mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond flat-flag.ly (262 bytes) Download Attachment flat-flag.png (21K) Download Attachment modern-straight-flag.ly (273 bytes) Download Attachment modern-straight-flag.png (28K) Download Attachment
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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

 Thanks, this has been entered as . Best, Simon On 27.08.2018 01:08, edes wrote: > Hello, list. > > For some reason, when using modern-straight-flag or flat-flag, flags are > much thicker than normal beams, and the distance is also much bigger. > > Straight and flat flags were widely used by modern composers like Pierre > Boulez and Karlheinz Stockhausen, and in all cases flags were treated like > beams, with the same distance and the same width. > > Please see the attached examples and images (I'm using 2.12.0 from git). > > BTW, the first flag does not align with the end of the stem. > > Best, > > e. > > 8< ----------------------------------------------------------- > > \version "2.21.0" > > \layout { >    \context { >      \Score >        \override Flag.stencil = #flat-flag >    } > } > > \relative c' { > << >    { >      r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. } >    \\ >    { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. } > } > > 8< ----------------------------------------------------------- > > \version "2.21.0" > > \layout { >    \context { >      \Score >        \override Flag.stencil = #modern-straight-flag >    } > } > > \relative c' { > << >    { >      r8. d'16 d d d d  d r8 r32 d32 d[ d d d] d32 r16. } >    \\ >    { r8. g,16 g g g g  g r8 r32 g32 g[ g g g] g32 r16. } > } > > 8< ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > bug-lilypond mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond_______________________________________________ bug-lilypond mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

 In reply to this post by edes Hello, list. Some time ago I reported a bug with modern-straight and flat flags, and it was accepted as issue 5412: https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5412/I only have a very basic knowledge of lilypond, but I assume that this problem happens at the font level, and that there is no way to improve the output by tweaking the lilypond code? If this is the case, could you please point me to the relevant place in the source code? I'm not a programmer (and I always found scheme to be particularly obscure), but I could try to adjust values by trial and error, and see if I can get a more decent output. Thanks. ee -- _______________________________________________ bug-lilypond mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

 ﻿On 2/16/19, 7:22 PM, "edes" <[hidden email]> wrote:         Hello, list.         Some time ago I reported a bug with modern-straight and flat flags, and it     was accepted as issue 5412:         https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5412/        I only have a very basic knowledge of lilypond, but I assume that this     problem happens at the font level, and that there is no way to improve the     output by tweaking the lilypond code? It turns out that the straight family of  flags is actually implemented in scheme. The file is scm/flag-styles.scm The thicknesses are hard-coded at lines 111 (modern-straight-flag), 117 (old-straight-flag), and 122 (flat-flag). The names of the variables (which show up only as numbers in these calls) are found at line 60. Unfortunately, at this point there does not appear to be any grob property for  the thickness, so there is not a straightforward override.  You'll need to edit the scheme file.  Or, you could define your own straight flag style by copying (and altering) one of the flag definitions.     If you get some better numbers, and especially if you have some evidence from nicely-engraved scores, it's likely that we would replace the defaults. Thanks, Carl     _______________________________________________ bug-lilypond mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

 Am So., 17. Feb. 2019 um 20:57 Uhr schrieb Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>: > > > > ﻿On 2/16/19, 7:22 PM, "edes" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >     Hello, list. > >     Some time ago I reported a bug with modern-straight and flat flags, and it >     was accepted as issue 5412: > >     https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5412/> >     I only have a very basic knowledge of lilypond, but I assume that this >     problem happens at the font level, and that there is no way to improve the >     output by tweaking the lilypond code? > > It turns out that the straight family of  flags is actually implemented in scheme. > > The file is scm/flag-styles.scm > > The thicknesses are hard-coded at lines 111 (modern-straight-flag), 117 (old-straight-flag), and 122 (flat-flag). > > The names of the variables (which show up only as numbers in these calls) are found at line 60. > > Unfortunately, at this point there does not appear to be any grob property for  the thickness, so there is not a straightforward override.  You'll need to edit the scheme file.  Or, you could define your own straight flag style by copying (and altering) one of the flag definitions. > > If you get some better numbers, and especially if you have some evidence from nicely-engraved scores, it's likely that we would replace the defaults. > > Thanks, > > Carl Hi Carl, I'm currently working on it. Better default values are easy to obtain: #(define-public (flat-flag grob)   "Flat flag style.  The angles of the flags are both 0 degrees"   ((straight-flag 0.48 0.81 0 1.0 0 1.0) grob)) Though, there is a design-decision we need to do. Currently the straight-flags are modeled like default Flag-glyphs. This means if there are more than 3 flags the spacing is not adjusted (like for beams). Furthermore the end of the stem and flag match exactly, as opposed to beams (at least they should, there's a small discrepancy, already reported by the OP). If we keep this thinking, than (flat) straight-flags stay different compared to Beams. The OP claims straight-flags, especially flat ones, should behave like Beams. If we follow, than straight-flags need to adjust according to the amount of flags, like Beams. Furthermore they should be placed so that the stem ends in the _middle_ of the first flag, as for beams. Disadvantage would be that a stem with default flag would often have a different visible length compared to a stem with straight flags. Speaking only for myself I think the OP is correct saying flat-flags should behave like Beams, though I don't agree for modern/old-straight-flags. So the question is, which route to follow? I already have code for the mentioned possibilties, but currently I'm not able to do one thing for flat-flag and a different for other straight-flags. In any case the length of beamed and unbeamed Stems is different in many cases. One would need to tackle Stem not Flag, so a different issue, imho. Cheers,   Harm _______________________________________________ bug-lilypond mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

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Re: modern-straight and flat- flags too thick and too spaced apart

 ﻿On 2/17/19, 7:52 PM, "edes" <[hidden email]> wrote:         el 2019-02-17 a las 21:41 Thomas Morley escribió:         > I'm currently working on it.         Thank you!             > Though, there is a design-decision we need to do.         Indeed...         In general terms, I stand by my original opinion that both flat *and*     modern-straight flags should behave like beams (but I might be missing     something, of course...). But the Stockhausen examples you show don't behave like *traditional* beams.  The Stockhausen examples show the flags all coming from the stem at the same point relative to the staff lines.  Traditional beams vary where they are relative to the staff lines (lower ones rest, middle ones straddle, higher ones hang, IIRC).  Since the Stockhausen beams don't live on the staff, they don't have to be concerned about the staff lines, and I suspect they are just one staff-space apart, although I haven't measured carefully. In the Crumb piece, we can't tell what's happening with the flat flags/beams; they aren't on the staff lines.  But I suspect that they are exactly one staff-space apart, so they don't behave like traditional beams either. I think this discussion belongs on the -user list, not the bug list, as we're now talking about aesthetics, so I've copied it over there. Thanks, Carl   _______________________________________________ bug-lilypond mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond