macOS 64-bit

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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 1:13 PM Werner LEMBERG <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >> And all users that don't use the two latest releases of MacOS (like
> >> me) are out of the game, too.
> >>
> >> [Note that I'm not a MacOS user at all.  For daily work I'm
> >>  exclusively using GNU/Linux.  It's just that I'm interested in
> >>  providing support even on exotic platforms :-)]
> >
> > Since you’re not a Mac user, are you in any position to talk about
> > what’s more usable on Mac OS *to experienced Mac users*?
>
> Uh, oh, a smiley in the end seems not to be enough to mark irony...
>
> Irrespective of that, Homebrew does not support macOS 10.7, so this is
> not related to `experience' at all.
>

Good to know; I wasn't aware of that.  However, won't our existing 32-bit
Mac build process be sufficient for 10.7?


>
> > If you’re not a Mac user, I suppose it makes sense that you’d prefer
> > MacPorts: isn’t it more or less a BSD package manager?  The problem,
> > though, is that it doesn’t fit the spirit of Mac OS very well.
> > Homebrew does a *much* better job at playing nice with the rest of
> > the OS, its CLI is pleasant, and it’s easy to create new packages.
>
> I started with Homebrew, but since 10.7 is no longer supported I was
> forced to abandon it.  By the way, it seems to me that your `hazy
> recollections' are no longer valid, as far as I can tell.  Having used
> both package managers I don't see an essential difference in the CLI
> (except that Homebrew uses colours and the sexy beer emoji on the
> command line).
>

Thanks, that's good to know.  I'll probably have a look at current MacPorts
in a VM, then, and see what I think of it now.

Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
[hidden email]
http://www.marnen.org
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Re: macOS 64-bit

Werner LEMBERG

>> [...], Homebrew does not support macOS 10.7, [...]
>
> Good to know; I wasn't aware of that.  However, won't our existing
> 32-bit Mac build process be sufficient for 10.7?

Yes.  But this fact doesn't help in creating 64bit stuff for new MacOS
versions.


    Werner

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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 1:54 PM Werner LEMBERG <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >> [...], Homebrew does not support macOS 10.7, [...]
> >
> > Good to know; I wasn't aware of that.  However, won't our existing
> > 32-bit Mac build process be sufficient for 10.7?
>
> Yes.  But this fact doesn't help in creating 64bit stuff for new MacOS
> versions.


Right.  My point is that we already have a build process suitable for 10.7,
and AFAIK we can keep that indefinitely, independent of whatever we do for
newer versions.


>
>
>     Werner
>
--
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Re: macOS 64-bit

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by marnen

> On 17 May 2019, at 16:10, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Given that MacPorts supports more packages than Homebrew this is a
>> very bold statement.
>
> Homebrew supports enough packages, and it’s really easy to add new ones, so
> that’s pretty much irrelevant.

Somebody said it had problems with choosing versions. For example, LilyPond uses Guile 1.8, not the latest, and the lilypond in MacPorts uses gcc8, not the latest supported gcc9.

As for the SDK, the one they use is the latest having a true GCC, which is gcc4, I think, and what is called gcc after that is instead clang, not the official version, but an inhouse version, and lilypond does not compile with any of them.



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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:06 PM Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > On 17 May 2019, at 16:10, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Given that MacPorts supports more packages than Homebrew this is a
> >> very bold statement.
> >
> > Homebrew supports enough packages, and it’s really easy to add new ones,
> so
> > that’s pretty much irrelevant.
>
> Somebody said it had problems with choosing versions. For example,
> LilyPond uses Guile 1.8, not the latest, and the lilypond in MacPorts uses
> gcc8, not the latest supported gcc9.


Will it build with GCC 9?


>
> As for the SDK, the one they use is the latest having a true GCC, which is
> gcc4, I think, and what is called gcc after that is instead clang, not the
> official version, but an inhouse version, and lilypond does not compile
> with any of them.


Hmm.  If LilyPond won’t compile with Clang/LLVM, I wonder if that would be
a problem for 64-bit Mac builds, because I don’t know if the macOS SDK will
build with GCC.  (It certainly might; I haven’t checked.)

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--
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Re: macOS 64-bit

Hans Åberg-2

> On 17 May 2019, at 21:14, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:06 PM Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> LilyPond uses Guile 1.8, not the latest, and the lilypond in MacPorts uses gcc8, not the latest supported gcc9.
>>
> Will it build with GCC 9?

That would need to be tested, but Werner said gcc9 does not build on earlier MacOS, and I saw somebody complaining it having clang listed as a dependency.

>> As for the SDK, the one they use is the latest having a true GCC, which is gcc4, I think, and what is called gcc after that is instead clang, not the official version, but an inhouse version, and lilypond does not compile with any of them.
>>
> Hmm.  If LilyPond won’t compile with Clang/LLVM, I wonder if that would be a problem for 64-bit Mac builds, because I don’t know if the macOS SDK will build with GCC.  (It certainly might; I haven’t checked.)

One problem was different interpretation of some C++ templates, so that would have to be rewritten in LilyPond.



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Re: macOS 64-bit

Daniel Johnson-6
In reply to this post by marnen
Here is my summary of what has been discussed regarding MacOS builds
over the last couple months. I feel like we are largely rehashing the
same questions/answers.

1. Lilypond’s current build system is GUB. GUB is a cross-platform
all-in-one build system which produces binaries for Linux, Windows, BSD,
and MacOS.
2. MacOS Mojave periodically issues warnings that 32-bit applications
will not run on the next version of MacOS.
3. Precompiled Lilypond binaries for MacOS are only available in 32-bit
versions.
4. The above is true because in order to create a version of Lilypond
that has GUI aspects and/or can be invoked from the Finder, it must be
compiled against the XCode SDK.
   a. Older, 32-bit only versions of the SDK are GPL3-compatible; this
is why 32-bit MacOS binaries have been available up to this point.
   b. Versions of the SDK with 64-bit support are not license-compatible
with GPL3, which is the license Lilypond uses.
   c. These more modern versions of the SDK require compilation on Apple
hardware.
   d. Therefore, 64-bit versions of Lilypond for MacOS cannot be
compiled with GUI/Darwin support.
5. Lilypond must be compiled with GCC rather than clang, due to
differences in how the C++ standard is interpreted regarding templates.
There does not seem to be a reasonable solution to this issue.
6. MacOS provides a CLI binary called gcc, but it is just a thin wrapper
around clang and therefore cannot be used.
7. Lilypond performs best (and most stably) when compiled against Guile
1.8. Current versions of Guile are 2.x; this is the version shipped by
default by pretty much every package manager for MacOS.
8. There are two major CLI package managers for MacOS, which are not
interchangeable with each other: MacPorts and Homebrew. I am ignoring
Fink for now. Both MacPorts and Homebrew supply GCC binaries.
9. Homebrew has dropped TeXLive support entirely. Lilypond requires TeX
and supporting libraries in order to build. You can, however, install
MacTeX using homebrew casks. With some supplemental software you can
make Lilypond build using MacTeX.

For the record, I have successfully built 64-bit Lilypond on a Homebrew
base. In addition to adding a few contributed taps, I had to manually
download, build and install the following:
- TeX Gyre font
- Flex 2.5.37
- Extractpdfmark
- Lilypond itself

I did not attempt to build documentation.

Full details here:
http://danieljohnson.name/blog/installing-lilypond-on-macos

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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
In reply to this post by Hans Åberg-2
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:27 PM Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > On 17 May 2019, at 21:14, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:06 PM Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> LilyPond uses Guile 1.8, not the latest, and the lilypond in MacPorts
> uses gcc8, not the latest supported gcc9.
> >>
> > Will it build with GCC 9?
>
> That would need to be tested, but Werner said gcc9 does not build on
> earlier MacOS,


Does that matter? We already have a build process that works for earlier
Mac OS.  It sounds like as long as both GCC 8 and 9 are supported, we might
be OK.  But I’m sort of speculating.

and I saw somebody complaining it having clang listed as a dependency.


LilyPond having Clang listed as a dependency, or GCC having Clang as a
dependency?

>

>
> >> As for the SDK, the one they use is the latest having a true GCC, which
> is gcc4, I think, and what is called gcc after that is instead clang, not
> the official version, but an inhouse version, and lilypond does not compile
> with any of them.
> >>
> > Hmm.  If LilyPond won’t compile with Clang/LLVM, I wonder if that would
> be a problem for 64-bit Mac builds, because I don’t know if the macOS SDK
> will build with GCC.  (It certainly might; I haven’t checked.)
>
> One problem was different interpretation of some C++ templates, so that
> would have to be rewritten in LilyPond.


Hmm.  At this point I should probably stop speculating and set up a build
environment.  But I’m getting married in a month and am not committing to
any big projects before the wedding. :)

Best,
--
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Re: macOS 64-bit

Hans Åberg-2

> On 17 May 2019, at 21:48, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:27 PM Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 17 May 2019, at 21:14, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:06 PM Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> LilyPond uses Guile 1.8, not the latest, and the lilypond in MacPorts uses gcc8, not the latest supported gcc9.
> >>
> > Will it build with GCC 9?
>
> That would need to be tested, but Werner said gcc9 does not build on earlier MacOS,
>
> Does that matter? We already have a build process that works for earlier Mac OS.  It sounds like as long as both GCC 8 and 9 are supported, we might be OK.  But I’m sort of speculating.

Werner will have to tune in on that.

> and I saw somebody complaining it having clang listed as a dependency.
>
> LilyPond having Clang listed as a dependency, or GCC having Clang as a dependency?

GCC 9 and maybe 8 too; I do not know if it is important.


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Re: macOS 64-bit

James Lowe-3
In reply to this post by Daniel Johnson-6
Hello,

On 17/05/2019 20:37, Daniel Johnson wrote:

> Here is my summary of what has been discussed regarding MacOS builds
> over the last couple months. I feel like we are largely rehashing the
> same questions/answers.
>
> ...
>
> For the record, I have successfully built 64-bit Lilypond on a
> Homebrew base. In addition to adding a few contributed taps, I had to
> manually download, build and install the following:
> - TeX Gyre font
> - Flex 2.5.37
> - Extractpdfmark
> - Lilypond itself
>
> I did not attempt to build documentation.

Then you did not need  Extractpdfmark and/or TexGyre.

They are only required for doc/website building and is why they are not
'required' packages.

Regards and keep up the good work.

James



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Re: macOS 64-bit

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Johnson-6

> On 17 May 2019, at 21:37, Daniel Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I had to manually download, build and install the following:
> - TeX Gyre font
> - Flex 2.5.37

Later version of Flex have broken C++ generation. Akim Demaille found a way around this, maybe here:
  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-bison/2019-05/msg00014.html



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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
In reply to this post by marnen
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:48 PM Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Hmm.  At this point I should probably stop speculating and set up a build
> environment.  But I’m getting married in a month and am not committing to
> any big projects before the wedding. :)
>

As I start to think about how to do this, it would be helpful for me to
know where the current Mac build instructions and/or script are.  I’m
assuming that lilypond.make in the GUB repo is where I should be
looking...or is there a better place?

>
> Best,
> --
> Marnen Laibow-Koser [hidden email] http://www.marnen.org Sent from
> Gmail Mobile
>
--
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Re: macOS 64-bit

Carl Sorensen-3
I'm pretty sure there are no Mac build instructions for Lilypond.

The Linux build instructions are in the Contributor's Guide.

GUB is a Linux build environment.

Daniel reported success in a Homebrew build for the Mac.  I would guess that he's willing to share it with you.

I hope you can get it working!  I'm a Mac user and would love to get to 64 bit.

Carl

Carl

On May 17, 2019 5:03 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:48 PM Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Hmm.  At this point I should probably stop speculating and set up a build
> environment.  But I’m getting married in a month and am not committing to
> any big projects before the wedding. :)
>

As I start to think about how to do this, it would be helpful for me to
know where the current Mac build instructions and/or script are.  I’m
assuming that lilypond.make in the GUB repo is where I should be
looking...or is there a better place?

>
> Best,
> --
> Marnen Laibow-Koser [hidden email] http://www.marnen.org Sent from
> Gmail Mobile
>
--
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Mobile
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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:58 PM Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm pretty sure there are no Mac build instructions for Lilypond.
>
> The Linux build instructions are in the Contributor's Guide.
>
> GUB is a Linux build environment.
>

I know GUB is a Linux build environment, but that’s irrelevant since it’s
where the Mac builds are currently being done, and therefore it’s where I’d
expect the Mac build scripts to live.

>
> Daniel reported success in a Homebrew build for the Mac.  I would guess
> that he's willing to share it with you.
>

I didn’t think he had reported actual success, but Daniel, if you’re
reading this, I’d love to see the relevant Homebrew formula if it exists.

>
> I hope you can get it working!  I'm a Mac user and would love to get to 64
> bit.
>

I suspect I can, but we’ll see.


> Carl
>
> Carl
>
> On May 17, 2019 5:03 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:48 PM Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hmm.  At this point I should probably stop speculating and set up a build
> > environment.  But I’m getting married in a month and am not committing to
> > any big projects before the wedding. :)
> >
>
> As I start to think about how to do this, it would be helpful for me to
> know where the current Mac build instructions and/or script are.  I’m
> assuming that lilypond.make in the GUB repo is where I should be
> looking...or is there a better place?
>
> >
> > Best,
> > --
> > Marnen Laibow-Koser [hidden email] http://www.marnen.org Sent from
> > Gmail Mobile
> >
> --
> Marnen Laibow-Koser [hidden email] http://www.marnen.org Sent from
> Gmail
> Mobile
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
In reply to this post by Jahrme Risner
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 6:06 PM Jahrme Risner <[hidden email]> wrote:
[...]

> Second, one of the consistent issues which Travis CI would not be able to
> solve is the dependence on LaTeX (texlive). There is not, AFAIK, *any*
> elegant
> solution to the usage of texlive on macOS. Homebrew, which is the package
> manager used for macOS builds on Travis CI, has chosen to completely remove
> texlive and all[*] related packages.


My understanding is that MacTeX is basically the Mac packaging of TeXLive
(am I right about that?), and MacTeX *is* available on Homebrew, at least
as a cask.

But even if that weren’t true, it would still probably be possible to
install it on a Travis VM.  Travis makes using Homebrew especially easy,
but it is perfectly possible to install things in other ways in the Travis
environment.


>         * There may be a few packages that have found workarounds,
>           but if so they are few and far-between.
> As such, from my reading, the most common workaround to build and use
> Docker
> images inside of Travis CI to run texlive related programs which would add
> an
> extra level of complexity.


That should not be necessary at all.


>
> Third, assuming Travis CI *could* build LilyPond successfully and was the
> recommended way to build for macOS, I believe there should be some way for
> developers to request builds when testing patches/changes to ensure that
> changes are not breaking macOS builds. The most common way to request
> Travis
> CI builds (in my understanding) is through Pull Requests which trigger
> automatic builds. This would then likely require someone to maintain a
> GitHub
> mirror of the LilyPond source from which developers could request builds.


There is already a GitHub mirror of the LilyPond source, so this should be
no problem if I understand you correctly.

A better alternative (in my opinion) would be to set up some form of
> continuous integration for LilyPond in general that could automate this
> testing for all proposed patches. While slightly off-topic, I know that it
> has
> previously been proposed to consider using GitLab.


AFAIK Travis is the only service of its kind that offers a hosted Mac build
environment free of charge for F/OSS projects.  That’s why I’m starting
with it.  If we have a suitable Mac environment elsewhere, great, but I’m
not assuming that we do.

My understanding is that
> GitLab's CI feature is considered to be one of the best free CI services
> available. The main drawback to GitLab's CI is that the "runners" must be
> provided by the organization, so this would necessitate either a physical
> or
> virtual mac; though MacStadium does offer free hosting for open source
> usage.


I’ll check out MacStadium, but my primary concern is to get a build server
set up *somewhere*.   I think Travis is the quickest and easiest way to do
that. If we then want to move it, it shouldn’t be too hard to do so.

[...]

> While I would never presume to say "no" to a project someone is interested
> in,
> I would recommend holding off on investing any serous amount of time in
> Travis builds until macOS build are working on macOS


 I understand why cross-compilation has been useful in the context of GUB,
but if we actually *can’t* build on the target OS, I would consider that to
be a broken build process.  I hope that’s not the case.

and there has been some
> more discussion on the preferred build/distribution work-flow going
> forward.


My intention is to find *some* solution that works and respects license
agreements.  Once we know what that is, we can figure out what a good
workflow for it would be.

>
>
> Best wishes,
> Jahrme
>
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Re: macOS 64-bit

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Carl Sorensen-3
Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> writes:

> I'm pretty sure there are no Mac build instructions for Lilypond.
>
> The Linux build instructions are in the Contributor's Guide.
>
> GUB is a Linux build environment.

The CG does not contain GUB building instructions I think, just native
ones.  LilyPond uses autoconf (and its own stepmake on top) and thus
building on MacOSX natively is not significantly different from building
on Linux natively.  Hunting dependencies might be less fun, of course.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: macOS 64-bit

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Carl Sorensen-3

> On 18 May 2019, at 02:58, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm a Mac user and would love to get to 64 bit.

It is already in MacPorts, both lilypond and lilypond-devel, and at least the latter seems to be working fine, though some systematic testing would be good.



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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 4:18 AM David Kastrup <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > I'm pretty sure there are no Mac build instructions for Lilypond.
> >
> > The Linux build instructions are in the Contributor's Guide.
> >
> > GUB is a Linux build environment.
>
> The CG does not contain GUB building instructions I think, just native
> ones.  LilyPond uses autoconf (and its own stepmake on top) and thus
> building on MacOSX natively is not significantly different from building
> on Linux natively.


Thanks, that’s kind of where I was going to start in the absence of
anything more specific.

That said, I *would* like to look at whatever controls the current Mac
builds on GUB. Am I correct that that is the lilypond.make I mentioned
earlier?

Hunting dependencies might be less fun, of course.


Shouldn’t be a big deal, but those are famous last words. :)


>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
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Re: macOS 64-bit

marnen
In reply to this post by marnen
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:55 PM Marnen Laibow-Koser <[hidden email]>
wrote:
[...]

> There is already a GitHub mirror of the LilyPond source, so this should be
> no problem if I understand you correctly.
>

Hmm.  Although there is a GitHub mirror as I stated (
http://github.com/lilypond/lilypond ), it is out of date: the last commit
in master on GitHub is from September 2018, whereas the last commit in
master on Savannah is from just a few days ago.  Can we get the mirroring
working again?  (This doesn't much affect what I'm doing, but it would make
life easier if the mirror were up to date.)

Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
[hidden email]
http://www.marnen.org
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Re: macOS 64-bit

Federico Bruni-2


Il giorno sab 18 mag 2019 alle 22:01, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:55 PM Marnen Laibow-Koser
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
> [...]
>
>>  There is already a GitHub mirror of the LilyPond source, so this
>> should be
>>  no problem if I understand you correctly.
>>
>
> Hmm.  Although there is a GitHub mirror as I stated (
> <http://github.com/lilypond/lilypond> ), it is out of date: the last
> commit
> in master on GitHub is from September 2018, whereas the last commit in
> master on Savannah is from just a few days ago.  Can we get the
> mirroring
> working again?  (This doesn't much affect what I'm doing, but it
> would make
> life easier if the mirror were up to date.)
>


The Github mirror was set up by two persons who stopped contributing to
LilyPond a few years ago.
You may ask them to add you as admin.

I've put Janek in Cc.


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