define-note-names.scm: Wrong German beh definition???

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define-note-names.scm: Wrong German beh definition???

Torsten Hämmerle
Hello all,

Working on a complete set of note names for all languages (including quarter
tones the new triple flat/sharp accidentals), I've stumbled over an
erroneous German note name definition of "beh".

In German (and most Scandinavian languages), B is called h, and there is the
exception of using "b" for B flat.
All the other alterations of h should not use the letter b:
h, heh, b (!), heseh, heses, heseseh, heseses.


In colloquial German, sometimes "bes" is used for "heses" (Bbb), because the
b (Bb) is being lowered by another half-tone, thus yielding a double-flat.
Following this logic, however, "beh" should lower a b (Bb) by another
quarter-tone step, but the
*current definition of beh is SEMI-FLAT instead of THREE-Q-FLAT!*


I'm somehow reluctant to change definitions that have been around for a long
time, but "beh" is utterly wrong.

*Correct note-names* (the ones marked "new" will introduced as a by-product
of triple-flat/sharp issue #3356)


Question:

Should we keep the current definition of beh, even if it's wrong?
Should we change the current definition of beh to mean THREE-Q-FLAT?
Should we just dump it?

Not at all shure what to do here...

Thanks for any input,
Torsten


PS: the German chord name function produces a sloppy "bes" when it really
should be a "heses":
\chords { \germanChords es1:dim/beses }





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Re: define-note-names.scm: Wrong German beh definition???

David Kastrup
Torsten Hämmerle <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hello all,
>
> Working on a complete set of note names for all languages (including quarter
> tones the new triple flat/sharp accidentals), I've stumbled over an
> erroneous German note name definition of "beh".
>
> In German (and most Scandinavian languages), B is called h, and there is the
> exception of using "b" for B flat.
> All the other alterations of h should not use the letter b:
> h, heh, b (!), heseh, heses, heseseh, heseses.
>
>
> In colloquial German, sometimes "bes" is used for "heses" (Bbb), because the
> b (Bb) is being lowered by another half-tone, thus yielding a double-flat.
> Following this logic, however, "beh" should lower a b (Bb) by another
> quarter-tone step, but the
> *current definition of beh is SEMI-FLAT instead of THREE-Q-FLAT!*

So SEMI_FLAT would rather be heh?  Heh.

> I'm somehow reluctant to change definitions that have been around for
> a long time, but "beh" is utterly wrong.

THREE-Q-FLAT regularly would be heseh?

> Question:
>
> Should we keep the current definition of beh, even if it's wrong?
> Should we change the current definition of beh to mean THREE-Q-FLAT?
> Should we just dump it?

Well, my first priority would be that we get the correct behavior for
correct note names.  IIRC, the implementation for "german" notename
language focused on correctness rather than convenience (as opposed to
the default "netherlands") and/or regularity.

So I'd lean towards dropping beh.

> PS: the German chord name function produces a sloppy "bes" when it really
> should be a "heses":
> \chords { \germanChords es1:dim/beses }

Certainly worth an issue.

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David Kastrup

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Re: define-note-names.scm: Wrong German beh definition???

Torsten Hämmerle
David Kastrup wrote
> So SEMI_FLAT would rather be heh?  Heh.

Yup. Music can be fun! :)
But seriously (this also affects the Scandinavian languages): If b is
already a semitone flat, a mere quarter tone flat must be heh.



David Kastrup wrote
> THREE-Q-FLAT regularly would be heseh?

Well, that's the problem. There obviously are no "regular" terms for these
exotic accidentals.
I'm trying to fill in the gaps using the general naming conventions of the
corresponding language.

And there seem to be *two major kinds of note name construction rules*:

*(1) The "c, d, e, f, g, …" kind of note names *
regularly use -es/-is resp. (ahem) -eh/-ih suffixes. The -eh/-ih suffixes
actually seem to be in use in the Netherlands. Never heard it in German,
though.
English is an exception here (-flatflatflat, seriously!?), Arabic is a mess,
anyway.

*(1) The "do, re, mi, …" variety of note names *
(solfège) typical of French and other Romance languages, use suffixes
resembling the accidental name:
-sb (semi/demi bémol), -b (bémol), -bsb (bémol + semi bémol), -bb (bémol +
bémol).
Following this logic (existing, I didn't make it up), I decided to used
-bbsb (bémol + bémol + semi-bémol) and -bbb (triple bémol)
Italian is similar.

Flemish, even if "a kind of Dutch", surprisingly uses solfège note names and
therefore the -is/-es suffixes do not apply here: we have -b for bemol
(flat) and -k for kruis ("cross": sharp), just like with Romance languages.

In Catalan, Spanish, Italian, there are suffixes like
Catalan: -qb, -tqb, -cqb (quart de to, tres quarts de to, cinc quarts de to)
Spanish: -cb, -tcb, -ccb (cuarto de tono, tres cuartos de tonos, cinco
cuartos de tonos)
Portuguese is similar.



David Kastrup wrote
> So I'd lean towards dropping beh.

I'd be glad to drop it...


David Kastrup wrote
> Certainly worth an issue.

I've come across that because the new triple sharp/flat accidentals affect
the German chord names, too.
So I don't think we need a separate issue for that (?).

And, of course, the general range of accidentals has to be extended from ±2
semitones to ±3 semitones.
There are so many dependencies that it is hard to split it up in many, many
issues (technical changes, metafont changes (incl. overhaul), documentation
in all the languages,...

OK, I think I'll drop the beh.
If somebody will complain in the future, it's easy to put it back again.


Names of languages

I'll opt for consistent and stringent language names (using the correctly
spelled proper name).

*català, português* instead of catalan, portugues, keeping the original
names for compatibility (cf. español/espanol).


All the best,
Torsten



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