add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

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add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

benko.pal
Reviewers: ,

Message:
g1 clef occurs in English manuscripts;
f2 clef occurs in Ockeghem's Missa prolationum (Chigi codex)

Description:
add some rarely used mensural clefs
and an alias petrucci-g2 to petrucci-g

Please review this at https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/

Affected files (+9, -0 lines):
   M scm/parser-clef.scm


Index: scm/parser-clef.scm
diff --git a/scm/parser-clef.scm b/scm/parser-clef.scm
index  
ea9f67fade20959cfb49300c21e52aba51770d2b..9832753445166c55b0dc1986c60db29b39d039ad  
100644
--- a/scm/parser-clef.scm
+++ b/scm/parser-clef.scm
@@ -87,10 +87,13 @@
      ("petrucci-c3" . ("clefs.petrucci.c3" 0 0))
      ("petrucci-c4" . ("clefs.petrucci.c4" 2 0))
      ("petrucci-c5" . ("clefs.petrucci.c5" 4 0))
+    ("petrucci-f2" . ("clefs.petrucci.f" -2 0))
      ("petrucci-f3" . ("clefs.petrucci.f" 0 0))
      ("petrucci-f4" . ("clefs.petrucci.f" 2 0))
      ("petrucci-f5" . ("clefs.petrucci.f" 4 0))
      ("petrucci-f" . ("clefs.petrucci.f" 2 0))
+    ("petrucci-g1" . ("clefs.petrucci.g" -4 0))
+    ("petrucci-g2" . ("clefs.petrucci.g" -2 0))
      ("petrucci-g" . ("clefs.petrucci.g" -2 0))
      ("kievan-do" . ("clefs.kievan.do" 0 0))))

@@ -123,7 +126,13 @@
      ("clefs.petrucci.c3" . 0)
      ("clefs.petrucci.c4" . 0)
      ("clefs.petrucci.c5" . 0)
+    ("clefs.petrucci.f2" . 4)
+    ("clefs.petrucci.f3" . 4)
+    ("clefs.petrucci.f4" . 4)
+    ("clefs.petrucci.f5" . 4)
      ("clefs.petrucci.f" . 4)
+    ("clefs.petrucci.g1" . -4)
+    ("clefs.petrucci.g2" . -4)
      ("clefs.petrucci.g" . -4)
      ("clefs.kievan.do" . 0)))




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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

James Lowe
Hello Benko,

On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 11:07:01 -0700
[hidden email] wrote:

> Reviewers: ,
>
> Message:
> g1 clef occurs in English manuscripts;
> f2 clef occurs in Ockeghem's Missa prolationum (Chigi codex)
>
> Description:
> add some rarely used mensural clefs
> and an alias petrucci-g2 to petrucci-g
>
> Please review this at https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/


Does this have a tracker or do we need to create one?

I couldn't see one immediately.

Regards

James

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

benko.pal
>> Please review this at https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/
>
>
> Does this have a tracker or do we need to create one?
>
> I couldn't see one immediately.

no, I'm struggling with it.  seems this is my first contribution since
leaving google code.
(and I had the same regression you had with your arabic.ly modification.)

p

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

benko.pal
2017-09-05 22:17 GMT+02:00 Benkő Pál <[hidden email]>:
>>> Please review this at https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/
>>
>>
>> Does this have a tracker or do we need to create one?
>>
>> I couldn't see one immediately.
>
> no, I'm struggling with it.  seems this is my first contribution since
> leaving google code.

I set up a sourceforge account, my username is benkopal. someone
please grant me write access.

p

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 bybenko.pal@gmail.com)

Phil Holmes
Done.

--
Phil Holmes


----- Original Message -----
From: "Benkő Pál" <[hidden email]>
To: "James" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043
[hidden email])


> 2017-09-05 22:17 GMT+02:00 Benkő Pál <[hidden email]>:
>>>> Please review this at https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/
>>>
>>>
>>> Does this have a tracker or do we need to create one?
>>>
>>> I couldn't see one immediately.
>>
>> no, I'm struggling with it.  seems this is my first contribution since
>> leaving google code.
>
> I set up a sourceforge account, my username is benkopal. someone
> please grant me write access.
>
> p
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
>


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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

James Lowe
In reply to this post by benko.pal
Benkő,


On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 22:17:30 +0200
Benkő Pál <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >> Please review this at https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/ 
> >
> >
> > Does this have a tracker or do we need to create one?
> >
> > I couldn't see one immediately.  
>
> no, I'm struggling with it.  seems this is my first contribution since
> leaving google code.
> (and I had the same regression you had with your arabic.ly
> modification.)
>
> p
>

I saw that Phil gave you write  access now. However to save you and
everyone time I created

https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5184

for you and have tested the patch.

James

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

benko.pal
> I saw that Phil gave you write  access now. However to save you and
> everyone time I created
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5184
>
> for you and have tested the patch.

Thank you, Phil and James!  I could finish git-cl configuration, and
hope that next time everything goes smoothly.
Pal

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

pkx166h
In reply to this post by benko.pal
I am updating the doc to include these new clefs (and add all ancient
clefs to appendix A10 and I noticed some identical outputs for
'different' clef names.


https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm
File scm/parser-clef.scm (right):

https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm#newcode96
scm/parser-clef.scm:96: ("petrucci-g2" . ("clefs.petrucci.g" -2 0))
Is this correct?

I know nothing about ancient notation, but it seems that "petrucci-g2"
is identical "petrucci-g" (below) apart from using 'g2' instead of 'g1'.

On a similar note I can see that petrucci-f and f4 also are identical
(and produce the same output).

https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

benko.pal
In reply to this post by benko.pal

https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm
File scm/parser-clef.scm (right):

https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm#newcode96
scm/parser-clef.scm:96: ("petrucci-g2" . ("clefs.petrucci.g" -2 0))
On 2017/09/10 13:02:25, pkx166h wrote:
> Is this correct?

> I know nothing about ancient notation, but it seems that "petrucci-g2"
is
> identical "petrucci-g" (below) apart from using 'g2' instead of 'g1'.

> On a similar note I can see that petrucci-f and f4 also are identical
(and
> produce the same output).

yes, this is all correct and intended.
we could have petrucci-french instead of the new g1, but we don't have
petrucci-violin (petrucci-alto, etc.) either -- so long we went with
petrucci-c1 etc.
now as I added the g1 variant, for consistency reasons seemed worthwile
to have g2 as alias of g, just like petrucci-f4 is an alias of
petrucci-f since long (I don't know which one was first, f or f4).
I thought about introducing a petrucci-c alias to one of the c-clefs,
but since all five are used frequently (and together -- in different
parts), any choice would be rather confusing than logical.

https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

benko.pal
In reply to this post by pkx166h
> I am updating the doc to include these new clefs (and add all ancient
> clefs to appendix A10

I wanted to look at it, but you beat me -- thanks a lot!
p

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 bybenko.pal@gmail.com)

Phil Holmes
In reply to this post by pkx166h

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043
[hidden email])


>I am updating the doc to include these new clefs (and add all ancient
> clefs to appendix A10 and I noticed some identical outputs for
> 'different' clef names.
>
>
> https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm
> File scm/parser-clef.scm (right):
>
> https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm#newcode96
> scm/parser-clef.scm:96: ("petrucci-g2" . ("clefs.petrucci.g" -2 0))
> Is this correct?
>
> I know nothing about ancient notation, but it seems that "petrucci-g2"
> is identical "petrucci-g" (below) apart from using 'g2' instead of 'g1'.
>
> On a similar note I can see that petrucci-f and f4 also are identical
> (and produce the same output).
>
> https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/


I just put a long comment on the issue tracker about this, but got "spambot
protection engaged" and it appeared to junk my comments.  So I'll try again.

James - there's more work to be done here, I'm afraid.  The mensural clef
table that you've replaced with some examples - most of the examples aren't
actually mensural clefs, they're Gregorian.  In this part of the NR you
should _only_ have clefs with "mensural in their name".  Further down in the
NR there is a section on Gregorian clefs and this should almost certainly be
updated in the same way as you have done in the mensural clefs section.
However, it's worth looking at the code that is used to create this section
currently - you'll see that the example notes are different from the ones
you've used in the appendix.  This is because mensural notes would not be
used in Gregorian music, so the appendix needs updating to use the same note
types as the existing table in the Gregorian clef section of the NR.

Hope this is useful and please shout if you want further information or
help.

--
Phil Holmes


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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

pkx166h
In reply to this post by benko.pal
On 2017/09/12 10:52:20, mail_philholmes.net wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mailto:[hidden email]>
> To: <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Cc: <mailto:[hidden email]>;
<mailto:[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043
> mailto:[hidden email])


> >I am updating the doc to include these new clefs (and add all ancient
> > clefs to appendix A10 and I noticed some identical outputs for
> > 'different' clef names.
> >
> >
> > https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm
> > File scm/parser-clef.scm (right):
> >
> >
https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/diff/1/scm/parser-clef.scm#newcode96
> > scm/parser-clef.scm:96: ("petrucci-g2" . ("clefs.petrucci.g" -2 0))
> > Is this correct?
> >
> > I know nothing about ancient notation, but it seems that
"petrucci-g2"
> > is identical "petrucci-g" (below) apart from using 'g2' instead of
'g1'.
> >
> > On a similar note I can see that petrucci-f and f4 also are
identical
> > (and produce the same output).
> >
> > https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/


> I just put a long comment on the issue tracker about this, but got
"spambot
> protection engaged" and it appeared to junk my comments.  So I'll try
again.

> James - there's more work to be done here, I'm afraid.  The mensural
clef
> table that you've replaced with some examples - most of the examples
aren't
> actually mensural clefs, they're Gregorian.  In this part of the NR
you
> should _only_ have clefs with "mensural in their name".  Further down
in the
> NR there is a section on Gregorian clefs and this should almost
certainly be
> updated in the same way as you have done in the mensural clefs
section.
> However, it's worth looking at the code that is used to create this
section
> currently - you'll see that the example notes are different from the
ones
> you've used in the appendix.  This is because mensural notes would not
be
> used in Gregorian music, so the appendix needs updating to use the
same note
> types as the existing table in the Gregorian clef section of the NR.

> Hope this is useful and please shout if you want further information
or
> help.

> --
> Phil Holmes


Phil, whatever you can offer to help. I know nothing about Ancient music
typesetting and was just basing my additions on what was already in the
NR. I had asked a few years ago for some help with the Ancient music NR
section as it really is looking rather odd and has not had any of the
tidying up work that I did with Graham all those years ago because only
a few people knew enough to know what was wrong or could be improved.

I assumed (incorrectly as it turned out) that the #'mensural value was
generic for all ancient music types and that it was the clef
name/settings that made the output 'Gregorian' vs 'Mensural'. :)
Although there are a lot of diffs, they are mainly just cut/paste edits
so if you can give me some broad education on what values I need to use
for a given set of keys sigs that should be enough than you go through
every single edit line by line.

I ordered the clefs as they appeared in the scm file rather than any
alphabetical or notational style order. I figured it would be easier to
correct someone's work than get a developer to do the edits themselves,
so have at it, let me know what I need to change.

To save you (and anyone else who may want to help) you can download what
the table looks like when it is compiled from here:

https://cloud.woelkli.com/s/dBGXat0NEGVoy5C

This is just that Clef section in the appendix so it is a small PDF.

Otherwise tell me what I need to fix or what is not correct etc.

If you think removing notes would be better (in this appendix) then I
can simply use 'spacers' (or if lilypond-book allows it, nothing at
all).

James



https://codereview.appspot.com/330120043/

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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

Phil Holmes
----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by
[hidden email])



> Phil, whatever you can offer to help. I know nothing about Ancient music
> typesetting and was just basing my additions on what was already in the
> NR. I had asked a few years ago for some help with the Ancient music NR
> section as it really is looking rather odd and has not had any of the
> tidying up work that I did with Graham all those years ago because only
> a few people knew enough to know what was wrong or could be improved.
>
> I assumed (incorrectly as it turned out) that the #'mensural value was
> generic for all ancient music types and that it was the clef
> name/settings that made the output 'Gregorian' vs 'Mensural'. :)
> Although there are a lot of diffs, they are mainly just cut/paste edits
> so if you can give me some broad education on what values I need to use
> for a given set of keys sigs that should be enough than you go through
> every single edit line by line.
>
> I ordered the clefs as they appeared in the scm file rather than any
> alphabetical or notational style order. I figured it would be easier to
> correct someone's work than get a developer to do the edits themselves,
> so have at it, let me know what I need to change.
>
> To save you (and anyone else who may want to help) you can download what
> the table looks like when it is compiled from here:
>
> https://cloud.woelkli.com/s/dBGXat0NEGVoy5C
>
> This is just that Clef section in the appendix so it is a small PDF.
>
> Otherwise tell me what I need to fix or what is not correct etc.
>
> If you think removing notes would be better (in this appendix) then I
> can simply use 'spacers' (or if lilypond-book allows it, nothing at
> all).
>
> James

I'll have a look at sending you some suggested changes tomorrow - I'm in all
day so this will be something to work on.

I think the notes add some value, since they show where middle C is with the
relevant clef.

--
Phil Holmes


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Re: add some rarely used mensural clefs (issue 330120043 by benko.pal@gmail.com)

benko.pal
All,

>> Phil, whatever you can offer to help. I know nothing about Ancient music
>> typesetting and was just basing my additions on what was already in the
>> NR. I had asked a few years ago for some help with the Ancient music NR
>> section

oh, sorry, I missed it.  I'm glad to help (I guess that would mainly
be explaining things about ancient notation).

>> as it really is looking rather odd and has not had any of the
>> tidying up work that I did with Graham all those years ago because only
>> a few people knew enough to know what was wrong or could be improved.
>>
>> I assumed (incorrectly as it turned out) that the #'mensural value was
>> generic for all ancient music types and that it was the clef
>> name/settings that made the output 'Gregorian' vs 'Mensural'. :)

It's the notehead style: vaticana, medicaea, solesmes and hufnagel are
for gregorian, mensural, neomensural and petrucci for mensural music.
I'm not at all sure about kievan -- it seems mensural, but I may well
be mistaken.

>> Although there are a lot of diffs, they are mainly just cut/paste edits
>> so if you can give me some broad education on what values I need to use
>> for a given set of keys sigs that should be enough than you go through
>> every single edit line by line.
>> I ordered the clefs as they appeared in the scm file rather than any
>> alphabetical or notational style order.

I think that's a good order.

>> I figured it would be easier to
>> correct someone's work than get a developer to do the edits themselves,
>> so have at it, let me know what I need to change.
>>
>> To save you (and anyone else who may want to help) you can download what
>> the table looks like when it is compiled from here:
>>
>> https://cloud.woelkli.com/s/dBGXat0NEGVoy5C
>>
>> This is just that Clef section in the appendix so it is a small PDF.

Grouping and ordering is fine.

>> Otherwise tell me what I need to fix or what is not correct etc.
>>
>> If you think removing notes would be better (in this appendix) then I
>> can simply use 'spacers' (or if lilypond-book allows it, nothing at
>> all).
>>
>> James
>
>
> I'll have a look at sending you some suggested changes tomorrow - I'm in all
> day so this will be something to work on.
>
> I think the notes add some value, since they show where middle C is with the
> relevant clef.

Agreed.
p

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