Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

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Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

Raphael Manfredi
What is the technical reason for repeats to not be automatically "played"
(i.e. unfolded) as many times as necessary in the MIDI output?

The "\unfoldRepeats" is a crude hack, and I fail to see the justification
behind this feature.  Surely, lilypond knows how to iterate over repeats
to be able to process "\unfoldRepeats" so surely it should not have any
problem generating correct MIDI output without this directive.

Why isn't this behaviour "fixed" to behave normally, i.e have MIDI output
reflect the music as written?

Raphael

P.S: Why aren't pralls, trills, arpeggios not automatically realized
during MIDI output?  When playing baroque music, the lack of realization
of those ornaments really changes the way it sounds.  And typesetting
the realization in the score is cumbersome and messes the visual quality
of the score.


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Re: Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

Erik Sandberg
On Sunday 04 December 2005 18.32, Raphael Manfredi wrote:

> What is the technical reason for repeats to not be automatically "played"
> (i.e. unfolded) as many times as necessary in the MIDI output?
>
> The "\unfoldRepeats" is a crude hack, and I fail to see the justification
> behind this feature.  Surely, lilypond knows how to iterate over repeats
> to be able to process "\unfoldRepeats" so surely it should not have any
> problem generating correct MIDI output without this directive.
>
> Why isn't this behaviour "fixed" to behave normally, i.e have MIDI output
> reflect the music as written?

Currently, MIDI is mainly intended mainly for prooflistening purposes, and
it's not very relevant to listen to repeats when prooflistening.

There are also technical reasons: The interpretation of "volta", "unfold" etc.
is not done by the midi/layout backends, but by music iterators. And music
iterators don't know whether midi or layout output is being produced.

> P.S: Why aren't pralls, trills, arpeggios not automatically realized
> during MIDI output?  When playing baroque music, the lack of realization
> of those ornaments really changes the way it sounds.  And typesetting
> the realization in the score is cumbersome and messes the visual quality
> of the score.

Look for "MIDI rewrite" here:
http://lilypond-design.com/sponsor/open-features.html

--
Erik


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Re: Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

Mats Bengtsson-6
In reply to this post by Raphael Manfredi
One reason is that the MIDI output, at least initially, only was intended
for proof listening a score, not to produce any musically pleasing output.
In such a situation, you clearly don't want to listen to the repeats.

Regarding realizations of pralls, trills and so on, I hope you realize that
there is no single "correct" realization of each such ornament. So,
I would judge it extremely hard to implement something that produces
a MIDI output that is pleasing to listen to, especially considering all
the treatises from the baroque era that describes how all playing and
ornamentation should be done according to the "good taste".

   /Mats

Raphael Manfredi wrote:

>What is the technical reason for repeats to not be automatically "played"
>(i.e. unfolded) as many times as necessary in the MIDI output?
>
>The "\unfoldRepeats" is a crude hack, and I fail to see the justification
>behind this feature.  Surely, lilypond knows how to iterate over repeats
>to be able to process "\unfoldRepeats" so surely it should not have any
>problem generating correct MIDI output without this directive.
>
>Why isn't this behaviour "fixed" to behave normally, i.e have MIDI output
>reflect the music as written?
>
>Raphael
>
>P.S: Why aren't pralls, trills, arpeggios not automatically realized
>during MIDI output?  When playing baroque music, the lack of realization
>of those ornaments really changes the way it sounds.  And typesetting
>the realization in the score is cumbersome and messes the visual quality
>of the score.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>lilypond-user mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>  
>

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
        Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================



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Re: Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

Han-Wen Nienhuys
In reply to this post by Erik Sandberg
Erik Sandberg wrote:

> On Sunday 04 December 2005 18.32, Raphael Manfredi wrote:
>
>>What is the technical reason for repeats to not be automatically "played"
>>(i.e. unfolded) as many times as necessary in the MIDI output?
>>
>>The "\unfoldRepeats" is a crude hack, and I fail to see the justification
>>behind this feature.  Surely, lilypond knows how to iterate over repeats
>>to be able to process "\unfoldRepeats" so surely it should not have any
>>problem generating correct MIDI output without this directive.
>>
>>Why isn't this behaviour "fixed" to behave normally, i.e have MIDI output
>>reflect the music as written?
>
>
> Currently, MIDI is mainly intended mainly for prooflistening purposes, and
> it's not very relevant to listen to repeats when prooflistening.
>
> There are also technical reasons: The interpretation of "volta", "unfold" etc.
> is not done by the midi/layout backends, but by music iterators. And music
> iterators don't know whether midi or layout output is being produced.


I'm planning to restructure the syntax of \score, \book and \midi in the
2.9 cycle so this will no longer be an issue.

--
  Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

Raphael Manfredi
In reply to this post by Erik Sandberg
Quoting Erik Sandberg <[hidden email]> from ml.lilypond.users:
:Look for "MIDI rewrite" here:
:http://lilypond-design.com/sponsor/open-features.html

Sounds (sic!) really interesting.  How much is sought for this feature?

I can contribute about 50 EUR for it.  Any other user would like to
team up with me to meet the price tag?

Raphael


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Re: Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

fiëé visuëlle
> Quoting Erik Sandberg <[hidden email]> from  
> ml.lilypond.users:
> :Look for "MIDI rewrite" here:
> :http://lilypond-design.com/sponsor/open-features.html
>
> Sounds (sic!) really interesting.  How much is sought for this  
> feature?
>
> I can contribute about 50 EUR for it.  Any other user would like to
> team up with me to meet the price tag?

I'd also offer 50 EUR, perhaps more, but later.


Greetlings from Lake Constance
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)




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Re: Why aren't repeats unfolded automatically in MIDI?

Trevor Bača-2
In reply to this post by Han-Wen Nienhuys
On 12/5/05, Han-Wen Nienhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Erik Sandberg wrote:
> > On Sunday 04 December 2005 18.32, Raphael Manfredi wrote:
> >
> >>What is the technical reason for repeats to not be automatically "played"
> >>(i.e. unfolded) as many times as necessary in the MIDI output?
> >>
> >>The "\unfoldRepeats" is a crude hack, and I fail to see the justification
> >>behind this feature.  Surely, lilypond knows how to iterate over repeats
> >>to be able to process "\unfoldRepeats" so surely it should not have any
> >>problem generating correct MIDI output without this directive.
> >>
> >>Why isn't this behaviour "fixed" to behave normally, i.e have MIDI output
> >>reflect the music as written?
> >
> >
> > Currently, MIDI is mainly intended mainly for prooflistening purposes, and
> > it's not very relevant to listen to repeats when prooflistening.
> >
> > There are also technical reasons: The interpretation of "volta", "unfold" etc.
> > is not done by the midi/layout backends, but by music iterators. And music
> > iterators don't know whether midi or layout output is being produced.
>
>
> I'm planning to restructure the syntax of \score, \book and \midi in the
> 2.9 cycle so this will no longer be an issue.
It would be interesting to hear more about the syntactic changes,
maybe as we get closer to 2.9.x.

--
Trevor Bača
[hidden email]

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