Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

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Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Urs Liska-3
[Resending because I sent it from the wrong address so it probably won't
get through. Apologies if it does and gest duplicated ...]

Hi all,


I succeeded overriding a MultiMeasureRest's stencil with a custom markup
to display arbitrary markups centered in a measure. So I know how to use
the MMR's properties to determine a measure's center and place custom
stencils appropriately.

However, now I have to do the same but not with text but with arbitrary
notes. Unfortunately there's no stencil for a "note", so I'm not sure if
I can make this approach work.

Would it be possible to manually combine (arbitrary) notehead, stem and
flag to a custom stencil that I can then place inside the staff by
overriding a MMR's stencil? Are there even tools to help me with that?

Or would there be a completely different possibility to print arbitrary
notes centered in a measure?

Thanks for any pointers
Urs




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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Kieren MacMillan
Hi Urs,

Isn’t this something that should be available to NoteHead (or NoteColumn) directly, rather than through MMR? Is there some measure-centred-interface that could be created to handle this? If so, that would also be *so* helpful for spanners (eliminating the need for David N’s workaround), and other grobs.

I clearly know very little of what I’m talking about… but wanted to get an idea of the technical possibilities.

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Urs Liska-3

Hi Kieren,

Am 05.02.19 um 16:35 schrieb Kieren MacMillan:
Hi Urs,

Isn’t this something that should be available to NoteHead (or NoteColumn) directly, rather than through MMR?


That would be cool, although I'd think that MMRs are generally the only items that are printed in the middle of a measure.


 Is there some measure-centred-interface that could be created to handle this? If so, that would also be *so* helpful for spanners (eliminating the need for David N’s workaround), and other grobs.

I clearly know very little of what I’m talking about… but wanted to get an idea of the technical possibilities.


Me too. What *could* of course be done is wrapping the stuff of finding the surrounding measure borders etc. in a more convenient and readily available Scheme function (e.g. within a stencil override being able to say

(let ((slur-props (spanner-properties grob)))

and have access to all sorts of information.

However, this won't help me with the current problem of the combined "note" (for which indeed NoteColumn or PaperColumn might be promising points to be attacked). *And* it will (at least on the Scheme side) always suffer from the limitation that it can only be accessed after-line-breaking or even in 'stencil' when any operations won't be able to influence anything else (if I'm pushing anything somewhere else there won't be any layout adjustment or collision handling anymore).

Probably one would have to see how the MultiMeasureRest originally performs its centering and learn from that (but I'd expect this to be in the C++ part).

Urs



Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Kieren MacMillan
Hi Urs,

> I'd think that MMRs are generally the only items that are printed in the middle of a measure.

No: MMRs [essentially always], measure numbers [often], final single-note columns [in many engravings], boxed markup/instructions inside the staff [in modern music], over-staff markups ["Safety", fermata, etc.].

I’m sure there are more — that list was just off the top of my head.

> Probably one would have to see how the MultiMeasureRest originally performs its centering and learn from that (but I'd expect this to be in the C++ part).

Yes, this is kind of what I’m hinting towards: I’m wondering if, in the C++ part, an interface could be added which centres a given grob in the middle of the current measure. (I assume the implementation would then have to be "retrofitted" onto MMRs to duplicate the current behaviour.)

I’ll be interested to hear what others think about the possibilities.

Cheers,
Kieren.
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Urs Liska-3
Urs Liska <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi Kieren,
>
> Am 05.02.19 um 16:35 schrieb Kieren MacMillan:
>> Hi Urs,
>>
>> Isn’t this something that should be available to NoteHead (or
>> NoteColumn) directly, rather than through MMR?
>
>
> That would be cool, although I'd think that MMRs are generally the
> only items that are printed in the middle of a measure.

Percentrepeats also.

--
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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Mark Knoop-4
In reply to this post by Urs Liska-3

At 15:23 on 05 Feb 2019, Urs Liska wrote:

> I succeeded overriding a MultiMeasureRest's stencil with a custom markup
> to display arbitrary markups centered in a measure. So I know how to use
> the MMR's properties to determine a measure's center and place custom
> stencils appropriately.
>
> However, now I have to do the same but not with text but with arbitrary
> notes. Unfortunately there's no stencil for a "note", so I'm not sure if
> I can make this approach work.
>
> Would it be possible to manually combine (arbitrary) notehead, stem and
> flag to a custom stencil that I can then place inside the staff by
> overriding a MMR's stencil? Are there even tools to help me with that?

It seems overkill, but you could try getting the stencil from a \markup \score block stripped of unnecessary engravers.

--
Mark Knoop

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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Urs Liska-3
Hi Mark,

Am 05.02.19 um 16:56 schrieb Mark Knoop:

> At 15:23 on 05 Feb 2019, Urs Liska wrote:
>> I succeeded overriding a MultiMeasureRest's stencil with a custom markup
>> to display arbitrary markups centered in a measure. So I know how to use
>> the MMR's properties to determine a measure's center and place custom
>> stencils appropriately.
>>
>> However, now I have to do the same but not with text but with arbitrary
>> notes. Unfortunately there's no stencil for a "note", so I'm not sure if
>> I can make this approach work.
>>
>> Would it be possible to manually combine (arbitrary) notehead, stem and
>> flag to a custom stencil that I can then place inside the staff by
>> overriding a MMR's stencil? Are there even tools to help me with that?
> It seems overkill, but you could try getting the stencil from a \markup \score block stripped of unnecessary engravers.


Good idea!
I'll try that. SInce I'm stuffing this away in include files it might be
overkill but feasible.

Best
Urs


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

David Nalesnik
In reply to this post by Kieren MacMillan
Off the top of my head--

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 9:51 AM Kieren MacMillan
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Urs,
>
> > I'd think that MMRs are generally the only items that are printed in the middle of a measure.
>
> No: MMRs [essentially always], measure numbers [often], final single-note columns [in many engravings], boxed markup/instructions inside the staff [in modern music], over-staff markups ["Safety", fermata, etc.].
>
> I’m sure there are more — that list was just off the top of my head.
>
> > Probably one would have to see how the MultiMeasureRest originally performs its centering and learn from that (but I'd expect this to be in the C++ part).
>
> Yes, this is kind of what I’m hinting towards: I’m wondering if, in the C++ part, an interface could be added which centres a given grob in the middle of the current measure. (I assume the implementation would then have to be "retrofitted" onto MMRs to duplicate the current behaviour.)
>

Centering a MultiMeasureRest in the measure is an issue of
"springs-and-rods".  Centering text or whatever outside the staff
through a spanner mechanism (see MeasureCounter) is done is relation
to NonMusicalPaperColumns which organize bar lines and "prefatory"
material.   This is the reason I coopted MeasureCounter for my hack.
Also, with a bit more refinement, this is what I did for my
MeasureAttachedSpanner, which I see I need to put up for patch review
as soon as I can, as I keep bringing it up :)

David N.

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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Kieren MacMillan
Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi Urs,
>
>> I'd think that MMRs are generally the only items that are printed in
>> the middle of a measure.
>
> No: MMRs [essentially always], measure numbers [often], final
> single-note columns [in many engravings], boxed markup/instructions
> inside the staff [in modern music], over-staff markups ["Safety",
> fermata, etc.].
>
> I’m sure there are more — that list was just off the top of my head.
>
>> Probably one would have to see how the MultiMeasureRest originally
>> performs its centering and learn from that (but I'd expect this to
>> be in the C++ part).
>
> Yes, this is kind of what I’m hinting towards: I’m wondering if, in
> the C++ part, an interface could be added which centres a given grob
> in the middle of the current measure. (I assume the implementation
> would then have to be "retrofitted" onto MMRs to duplicate the current
> behaviour.)
>
> I’ll be interested to hear what others think about the possibilities.

I have no idea what you mean by "an interface could be added".  Grob
interfaces are a fixed component of the grob data structure: you cannot
add or remove them at will.  A certain grob type either has an interface
or not.  It's not a per-grob decision to make.

--
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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Kieren MacMillan
Hi David,

> I have no idea what you mean by "an interface could be added".  Grob
> interfaces are a fixed component of the grob data structure: you cannot
> add or remove them at will.  A certain grob type either has an interface
> or not.  It's not a per-grob decision to make.

Looking at the list <http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/internals/graphical-object-interfaces>, I don’t see a "measure-centred-interface" or something obviously equivalent. So what I meant was: can/should such an interface be created [i.e., "added to that list"], and then the appropriate grob types be made to have that interface as part of their makeup?

Of course, it’s quite possible that everything that’s required to do what we’re talking about (i.e., measure-centering MMRs, NoteColumns, text spanners, percent repeats, over-staff scripts, etc.) is already present in another interface (or combination of interfaces), so creating a whole new interface is unnecessary. That’s what I’m trying to get information about.

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Urs Liska-3
In reply to this post by Urs Liska-3

Hi Mark,

Am 05.02.19 um 17:01 schrieb Urs Liska:
Hi Mark,

Am 05.02.19 um 16:56 schrieb Mark Knoop:
At 15:23 on 05 Feb 2019, Urs Liska wrote:
I succeeded overriding a MultiMeasureRest's stencil with a custom markup
to display arbitrary markups centered in a measure. So I know how to use
the MMR's properties to determine a measure's center and place custom
stencils appropriately.

However, now I have to do the same but not with text but with arbitrary
notes. Unfortunately there's no stencil for a "note", so I'm not sure if
I can make this approach work.

Would it be possible to manually combine (arbitrary) notehead, stem and
flag to a custom stencil that I can then place inside the staff by
overriding a MMR's stencil? Are there even tools to help me with that?
It seems overkill, but you could try getting the stencil from a \markup \score block stripped of unnecessary engravers.


Good idea!
I'll try that. SInce I'm stuffing this away in include files it might be overkill but feasible.

It sort-of works.

I'm producing the stencil of a \markup \score expression through this function

getNoteMarkupStencil =
#(define-scheme-function (grob music)(ly:grob? ly:music?)
   (grob-interpret-markup grob
     #{
       \markup \score {
         \new Staff $music
         \layout {
           \context {
             \Score
             \omit StaffSymbol
             \omit Clef
             \omit TimeSignature
             \omit KeySignature
             \omit BarLine
           }
         }
       }
     #}))

and pass it to a stencil override where two markups are also combined above and below the staff.

The result (attached) is promising but not quite there yet. I have the impression that space is left for the accidental, whether it is there or not.

Do you have any idea how I could tackle this (without having me to sort everything out into a MWE)? Is this the negative part of the extent of the note's NoteColumn or so? Or rather some space at the beginning of a score (the one between the time signature and the first note for example (where, I believe, a leading accidental is printed right into)?

The thing is, I can also pass more than one note to that function, and it will still leave exactly that space in front. When the first note has an accidental or not all the notes remain at the same position, just the accidental is added to the left.

After having written this I'm pretty sure the problem is that space before the first note of a score/system. How can I remove that in the Score definition above?

Thanks
Urs




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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Kieren MacMillan
Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> I have no idea what you mean by "an interface could be added".  Grob
>> interfaces are a fixed component of the grob data structure: you cannot
>> add or remove them at will.  A certain grob type either has an interface
>> or not.  It's not a per-grob decision to make.
>
> Looking at the list
> <http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/internals/graphical-object-interfaces>,
> I don’t see a "measure-centred-interface" or something obviously
> equivalent. So what I meant was: can/should such an interface be
> created [i.e., "added to that list"], and then the appropriate grob
> types be made to have that interface as part of their makeup?

What do you think the presence or absence of some interface implies?

--
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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Urs Liska-3

Am 05.02.19 um 18:17 schrieb David Kastrup:

> Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Hi David,
>>
>>> I have no idea what you mean by "an interface could be added".  Grob
>>> interfaces are a fixed component of the grob data structure: you cannot
>>> add or remove them at will.  A certain grob type either has an interface
>>> or not.  It's not a per-grob decision to make.
>> Looking at the list
>> <http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/internals/graphical-object-interfaces>,
>> I don’t see a "measure-centred-interface" or something obviously
>> equivalent. So what I meant was: can/should such an interface be
>> created [i.e., "added to that list"], and then the appropriate grob
>> types be made to have that interface as part of their makeup?
> What do you think the presence or absence of some interface implies?
>
Either that it doesn't make sense to have it, that it is impossible to
have, or that noone has bothered implementing it yet?

I have the impression you are slightly talking beside each other.

Urs


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

David Kastrup
Urs Liska <[hidden email]> writes:

> Am 05.02.19 um 18:17 schrieb David Kastrup:
>> Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:
>>
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>>> I have no idea what you mean by "an interface could be added".  Grob
>>>> interfaces are a fixed component of the grob data structure: you cannot
>>>> add or remove them at will.  A certain grob type either has an interface
>>>> or not.  It's not a per-grob decision to make.
>>> Looking at the list
>>> <http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/internals/graphical-object-interfaces>,
>>> I don’t see a "measure-centred-interface" or something obviously
>>> equivalent. So what I meant was: can/should such an interface be
>>> created [i.e., "added to that list"], and then the appropriate grob
>>> types be made to have that interface as part of their makeup?
>> What do you think the presence or absence of some interface implies?
>>
> Either that it doesn't make sense to have it, that it is impossible to
> have, or that noone has bothered implementing it yet?
>
> I have the impression you are slightly talking beside each other.

I did not mean the presence or absence of some interface in LilyPond but
the presence or absence of some interface in a grob.  I am trying to
figure out what Kieren is talking about.  I don't see that you are
helping, actually.

--
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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Kieren MacMillan
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
Hi David,

> What do you think the presence or absence of some interface implies?

I think the presence of an interface means a shared behaviour is implied between grob types which have that interface, the implementation of which is individually determined for each grob type. For example, I think that all grob types which share the text-interface have a baseline-skip property that can be interacted with (where hopefully an implementation of that property for that grob type has been created, or setting the property will have no effect).

So in my (possibly deeply flawed) grasp of how interfaces work: a measure-centred-interface might add a centre-in-measure property, which centres the grob [type] within the current measure; for MMRs that would be set to true by default, and for other grob types (e.g., NoteColumn or NoteHead) it might be set to false by default. Overriding that property would then engage whatever programming was in place to centre the grob.

How far off the mark am I?

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

David Kastrup
Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> What do you think the presence or absence of some interface implies?
>
> I think the presence of an interface means a shared behaviour is
> implied between grob types which have that interface, the
> implementation of which is individually determined for each grob type.
> For example, I think that all grob types which share the
> text-interface have a baseline-skip property that can be interacted
> with (where hopefully an implementation of that property for that grob
> type has been created, or setting the property will have no effect).

Well, there we have the problem.  Having an interface implies having a
set of properties.  That's all.  It remains the grob's responsibility to
actually do anything with those properties.  An interface often is
associated with a set of available Scheme functions (often carrying the
interface name in their name) but that association is just a convention
without programmatic consequences.

> So in my (possibly deeply flawed) grasp of how interfaces work: a
> measure-centred-interface might add a centre-in-measure property,
> which centres the grob [type] within the current measure; for MMRs
> that would be set to true by default, and for other grob types (e.g.,
> NoteColumn or NoteHead) it might be set to false by
> default. Overriding that property would then engage whatever
> programming was in place to centre the grob.
>
> How far off the mark am I?

An interface may include some property but that does not make a grob do
anything with that property.  Those grobs which you'd desire to heed
that property would all have to be programmatically changed to look at
that property, by employing some interface-specific function in their
internals or similar.

Basically calling for an interface just calls for giving a set of
properties a label.

--
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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Kieren MacMillan
Hi David,

> An interface may include some property but that does not make a grob do
> anything with that property.  Those grobs which you'd desire to heed
> that property would all have to be programmatically changed to look at
> that property, by employing some interface-specific function in their
> internals or similar.

That’s exactly what I thought, though I clearly didn’t describe my impression very well. I understand fully that the grobs would have to be programmatically changed to deal with that property (which is why I suggested that MMRs would likely have to be reprogrammed to do exactly what they already do, just via the new property).

> Basically calling for an interface just calls for giving a set of properties a label.

So, I’ll reframe my question:
Does it make sense to give measure-centering properties a label?

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

David Kastrup
Kieren MacMillan <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> An interface may include some property but that does not make a grob do
>> anything with that property.  Those grobs which you'd desire to heed
>> that property would all have to be programmatically changed to look at
>> that property, by employing some interface-specific function in their
>> internals or similar.
>
> That’s exactly what I thought, though I clearly didn’t describe my
> impression very well. I understand fully that the grobs would have to
> be programmatically changed to deal with that property (which is why I
> suggested that MMRs would likely have to be reprogrammed to do exactly
> what they already do, just via the new property).
>
>> Basically calling for an interface just calls for giving a set of
>> properties a label.
>
> So, I’ll reframe my question:
> Does it make sense to give measure-centering properties a label?

What are "measure-centering properties"?

--
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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Urs Liska-3
In reply to this post by Urs Liska-3


Am 05.02.19 um 17:42 schrieb Urs Liska:

Hi Mark,

Am 05.02.19 um 17:01 schrieb Urs Liska:
Hi Mark,

Am 05.02.19 um 16:56 schrieb Mark Knoop:
At 15:23 on 05 Feb 2019, Urs Liska wrote:
I succeeded overriding a MultiMeasureRest's stencil with a custom markup
to display arbitrary markups centered in a measure. So I know how to use
the MMR's properties to determine a measure's center and place custom
stencils appropriately.

However, now I have to do the same but not with text but with arbitrary
notes. Unfortunately there's no stencil for a "note", so I'm not sure if
I can make this approach work.

Would it be possible to manually combine (arbitrary) notehead, stem and
flag to a custom stencil that I can then place inside the staff by
overriding a MMR's stencil? Are there even tools to help me with that?
It seems overkill, but you could try getting the stencil from a \markup \score block stripped of unnecessary engravers.


Good idea!
I'll try that. SInce I'm stuffing this away in include files it might be overkill but feasible.

It sort-of works.

I'm producing the stencil of a \markup \score expression through this function

getNoteMarkupStencil =
#(define-scheme-function (grob music)(ly:grob? ly:music?)
   (grob-interpret-markup grob
     #{
       \markup \score {
         \new Staff $music
         \layout {
           \context {
             \Score
             \omit StaffSymbol
             \omit Clef
             \omit TimeSignature
             \omit KeySignature
             \omit BarLine
           }
         }
       }
     #}))

and pass it to a stencil override where two markups are also combined above and below the staff.

The result (attached) is promising but not quite there yet. I have the impression that space is left for the accidental, whether it is there or not.

Do you have any idea how I could tackle this (without having me to sort everything out into a MWE)?


Well, that's sort-of embarrassing ;-) Here's the MWE:

\version "2.19.82"

\layout {
  \context {
    \Staff
    \omit Clef
    \omit TimeSignature
  }
}

{
  c''1
}
{
  cis''1
}

The space left to the notehead here is exactly the amount my centered stencil is offset to the right.

And having the MWE available also made me find the solution myself: \once \override NoteColumn.X-offset = -2. I assume this is reverting

(first-note fixed-space . 2.0)

from some of the elements starting the staff.

For the record I'm posting this result.

Urs


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Re: Use arbitrary notes (with stem/flag) as MMR stencil override

Kieren MacMillan
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
Hi David,

> What are "measure-centering properties"?

Whichever ones we think make sense, I suppose.

As I’ve already said, I could see there being a boolean #'centre-in-measure; possibly it would be useful to have a numerical #'offset (defaulting to 0); in a complete implementation, I suppose there’d be a #'centre-together property (analogous to #'keep-alive-together); etc.

I could probably think of a dozen others… but I don’t see it being worth the exercise if there’s no benefit to adding the interface.

Cheers,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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