Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

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dak
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Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

dak

Seems like an obvious addition.  Would make stuff (like slurs, hairpins
and so on) starting at the bar move backwards to the bar line.  Probably
also useful for non-spanners like a \fermata ?

--
David Kastrup

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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

Marc Hohl
Am 24.07.2017 um 13:58 schrieb David Kastrup:
>
> Seems like an obvious addition.  Would make stuff (like slurs, hairpins
> and so on) starting at the bar move backwards to the bar line.  Probably
> also useful for non-spanners like a \fermata ?

+1
>


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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

Simon Albrecht-2
In reply to this post by dak
On 24.07.2017 13:58, David Kastrup wrote:
> Seems like an obvious addition.  Would make stuff (like slurs, hairpins
> and so on) starting at the bar move backwards to the bar line.  Probably
> also useful for non-spanners like a \fermata ?

I have difficulty imagining use cases. Is to-barline really used for
anything else than hairpins? In hairpins there are just those two
different conventions (or preferences, or use cases) where a
(de)crescendo which musically ends on the first beat of the next bar may
be drawn up to that beat or to the barline, but there is no analogy to
that at the beginning of the bar. (Except that in manuscripts and
hand-engravings hairpins often don’t align with notes or anything to any
kind of precision, so there are probably enough examples for hairpins
starting on barlines.)
I certainly can imagine that _attaching_ spanners, or fermatas, to
barlines would be great. Which would not involve a from-barline
property, but rather, … uhm, … making bar lines events? (always? only if
necessary?) (Standard disclaimer: this is not a serious proposal due to
my lack of knowledge on implementation)

Best, Simon

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dak
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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

dak
Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 24.07.2017 13:58, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Seems like an obvious addition.  Would make stuff (like slurs, hairpins
>> and so on) starting at the bar move backwards to the bar line.  Probably
>> also useful for non-spanners like a \fermata ?
>
> I have difficulty imagining use cases. Is to-barline really used for
> anything else than hairpins?

Well, I just put up issue 5161 since I needed slurs to end at a repeat
bar line.

There is the reverse problem at the start of a coda or the start of any
alternative but the first.  You'll have the same basically for hairpins,
of course.  Accordion bellows direction change marks may be placed over
a barline rather than the first following note if the direction does not
change fast again.

> In hairpins there are just those two different conventions (or
> preferences, or use cases) where a (de)crescendo which musically ends
> on the first beat of the next bar may be drawn up to that beat or to
> the barline, but there is no analogy to that at the beginning of the
> bar. (Except that in manuscripts and hand-engravings hairpins often
> don’t align with notes or anything to any kind of precision, so there
> are probably enough examples for hairpins starting on barlines.)  I
> certainly can imagine that _attaching_ spanners, or fermatas, to
> barlines would be great. Which would not involve a from-barline
> property, but rather, … uhm, … making bar lines events? (always? only
> if necessary?) (Standard disclaimer: this is not a serious proposal
> due to my lack of knowledge on implementation)

Making a bar line an event would then place per-chord articulation marks
of the following note on the bar line.  I don't think that this idea is
as good as it may appear to you.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

Simon Albrecht-2
On 24.07.2017 15:30, David Kastrup wrote:
> Making a bar line an event would then place per-chord articulation marks
> of the following note on the bar line.

You mean

{
   c1
   \bar "||"
   <c e g>\fermata
   \bar "|." \fermata
}

would place both fermatas on the barlines?

>    I don't think that this idea is
> as good as it may appear to you.

I wouldn’t claim to be able to assess the consequences.

Best, Simon

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dak
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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

dak
Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 24.07.2017 15:30, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Making a bar line an event would then place per-chord articulation marks
>> of the following note on the bar line.
>
> You mean
>
> {
>   c1
>   \bar "||"
>   <c e g>\fermata
>   \bar "|." \fermata
> }
>
> would place both fermatas on the barlines?

Each on a different one, yes.

>> I don't think that this idea is as good as it may appear to you.
>
> I wouldn’t claim to be able to assess the consequences.

Well, in addition to other problems \bar is a music function call and
those cannot take articulations because of syntactic ambiguities.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

Kieren MacMillan
In reply to this post by Simon Albrecht-2
Hi Simon,

> On 24.07.2017 13:58, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Seems like an obvious addition.  Would make stuff (like slurs, hairpins
>> and so on) starting at the bar move backwards to the bar line.  Probably
>> also useful for non-spanners like a \fermata ?
>
> I have difficulty imagining use cases.

Measure-attached spanners (e.g. "<--  Safety -->" ) comes to mind immediately.

> Is to-barline really used for anything else than hairpins?

Pedals?

> I certainly can imagine that _attaching_ spanners

Ah… there it is.  =)

Cheers,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

David Nalesnik
On Jul 24, 2017 10:50 AM, "Kieren MacMillan" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Hi Simon,

> On 24.07.2017 13:58, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Seems like an obvious addition.  Would make stuff (like slurs, hairpins
>> and so on) starting at the bar move backwards to the bar line.  Probably
>> also useful for non-spanners like a \fermata ?
>
> I have difficulty imagining use cases.

Measure-attached spanners (e.g. "<--  Safety -->" ) comes to mind
immediately.


I've got a patch for these.  I can post it but it ought to wait for 2.20 to
be locked in.


> Is to-barline really used for anything else than hairpins?

Pedals?

> I certainly can imagine that _attaching_ spanners

Ah… there it is.  =)

Cheers,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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Re: Should we have a from-barline property in analogy to to-barline ?

Kieren MacMillan
Hi David,

> I've got a patch for these.  I can post it but it ought to wait for 2.20 to be locked in.

No worries!

I currently use the 'outboard' version you made a few years ago, which remains great — but it will be wonderful to have the functionality 'inboard'.

Thanks,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: [hidden email]


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