Requesting an addition

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Requesting an addition

Michael Rivers
I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this, but I'd be willing to send somebody some money via Paypal to add the so-called "Haydn turn" (reversed turn with vertical slash) to Lilypond. There were a couple of posts from 2009 on doing this, but in the current stable version of Lilypond the resulting ornaments are off-center from their notes. Besides, Haydn is a major composer, and this ornament is all over his keyboard works, so I think it should be an official part of Lilypond. I have no idea how much work this would take and what the going rate for a feature like this is.

Thanks,
Michael Rivers
michaeljrivers@gmail.com
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Re: Requesting an addition

Werner LEMBERG

> I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this, but I'd be willing
> to send somebody some money via Paypal to add the so-called "Haydn
> turn" (reversed turn with vertical slash) to Lilypond.

Please provide a scan (or a link to it) of such a symbol which you
consider as good-looking..

> I have no idea how much work this would take and what the going rate
> for a feature like this is.

If an existing symbol can be reused, implementing this is rather
straightforward, and a few hours of work will do.  A design from
scratch probably needs three or four times as long.


    Werner

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Re: Requesting an addition

David Kastrup
Werner LEMBERG <[hidden email]> writes:

>> I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this, but I'd be willing
>> to send somebody some money via Paypal to add the so-called "Haydn
>> turn" (reversed turn with vertical slash) to Lilypond.
>
> Please provide a scan (or a link to it) of such a symbol which you
> consider as good-looking..
>
>> I have no idea how much work this would take and what the going rate
>> for a feature like this is.
>
> If an existing symbol can be reused, implementing this is rather
> straightforward, and a few hours of work will do.  A design from
> scratch probably needs three or four times as long.

By the way: how is the relation to other music fonts?  If we invent a
new articulation, music fonts from other sources will not know about it,
or we won't know about what they have.  And even if we puzzle
articulations together from pieces, they won't fit together just the
same in other music fonts.

So what's the sanest course with regard to new articulations?  This is
not really related to this particular addition, but it generally makes
me wonder.

--
David Kastrup


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Re: Requesting an addition

Francisco Vila
2013/1/21 David Kastrup <[hidden email]>:
> By the way: how is the relation to other music fonts?  If we invent a
> new articulation, music fonts from other sources will not know about it,
> or we won't know about what they have.  And even if we puzzle
> articulations together from pieces, they won't fit together just the
> same in other music fonts.
>
> So what's the sanest course with regard to new articulations?  This is
> not really related to this particular addition, but it generally makes
> me wonder.

We support inclusion of alternate music fonts, but we maintain only
one music font. Other fonts could do whatever they did in the past to
keep being usable after our additions.

--
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Requesting an addition

Colin Hall-3
In reply to this post by Michael Rivers

Michael Rivers writes:

> I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this

Enhancement requests should be sent to bug-lilypond.

I've included bug-lilypond on this reply to your post, so it is taken
care of now.

@bugsquad
See Michael's original post on lilypond-user.

Cheers,
Colin.


--
Colin Hall

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Re: Requesting an addition

Werner LEMBERG
In reply to this post by David Kastrup

>> If an existing symbol can be reused, implementing this is rather
>> straightforward, and a few hours of work will do.  A design from
>> scratch probably needs three or four times as long.
>
> By the way: how is the relation to other music fonts?  If we invent
> a new articulation, music fonts from other sources will not know
> about it, or we won't know about what they have.

I've seen this symbol already in print, so it is not something we
`invent'.  I was rather talking about designing it from scratch.

For example, it might be possible to simply reuse the
`scripts.reverseturn' glyph with an added vertical bar crossing it.
However, IIRC, Haydn just uses a small wiggle, so `reverseturn' might
be not appropriate, and we need probably a different shape.


    Werner

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Re: Requesting an addition

David Kastrup
Werner LEMBERG <[hidden email]> writes:

>>> If an existing symbol can be reused, implementing this is rather
>>> straightforward, and a few hours of work will do.  A design from
>>> scratch probably needs three or four times as long.
>>
>> By the way: how is the relation to other music fonts?  If we invent
>> a new articulation, music fonts from other sources will not know
>> about it, or we won't know about what they have.
>
> I've seen this symbol already in print, so it is not something we
> `invent'.  I was rather talking about designing it from scratch.
>
> For example, it might be possible to simply reuse the
> `scripts.reverseturn' glyph with an added vertical bar crossing it.
> However, IIRC, Haydn just uses a small wiggle, so `reverseturn' might
> be not appropriate, and we need probably a different shape.

Haydn's autograph was, I think, pretty much indistinguishable from
something like downprall or similar.

But that's sort of a red herring.  If the execution is deemed by the
publisher (according to musical cues) to be the kind of "Haydn turn", a
particular glyph tends to be used for that in print.

Just which glyph was used differed over the centuries.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: Requesting an addition

Colin Hall-3
In reply to this post by Colin Hall-3

Colin Hall writes:

> Michael Rivers writes:
>
>> I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this
>
> Enhancement requests should be sent to bug-lilypond.
>
> I've included bug-lilypond on this reply to your post, so it is taken
> care of now.
>
> @bugsquad
> See Michael's original post on lilypond-user.
>
> Cheers,
> Colin.


--
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Re: Requesting an addition

Colin Hall-3
In reply to this post by Colin Hall-3

Colin Hall writes:

> Michael Rivers writes:
>
>> I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this
>
> Enhancement requests should be sent to bug-lilypond.
>
> I've included bug-lilypond on this reply to your post, so it is taken
> care of now.
>
> @bugsquad
> See Michael's original post on lilypond-user.

Michael's post on lilypond-user, requesting that support for the Hadyn
turn be added:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-01/msg00809.html

Eluze created a tracker:

http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3128

Cheers,
Colin.

--
Colin Hall

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Re: Requesting an addition

Jeffrey Trevino
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
"So what's the sanest course with regard to new articulations?"

From the perspective of contemporary music, the sanest course is to provide basic utilities for drawing arbitrarily complex symbols in specified locations, which Lilypond sort of does/doesn't have.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:59 AM, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> wrote:
Werner LEMBERG <[hidden email]> writes:

>> I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this, but I'd be willing
>> to send somebody some money via Paypal to add the so-called "Haydn
>> turn" (reversed turn with vertical slash) to Lilypond.
>
> Please provide a scan (or a link to it) of such a symbol which you
> consider as good-looking..
>
>> I have no idea how much work this would take and what the going rate
>> for a feature like this is.
>
> If an existing symbol can be reused, implementing this is rather
> straightforward, and a few hours of work will do.  A design from
> scratch probably needs three or four times as long.

By the way: how is the relation to other music fonts?  If we invent a
new articulation, music fonts from other sources will not know about it,
or we won't know about what they have.  And even if we puzzle
articulations together from pieces, they won't fit together just the
same in other music fonts.

So what's the sanest course with regard to new articulations?  This is
not really related to this particular addition, but it generally makes
me wonder.

--
David Kastrup


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--
《〠》】〶【〖〠〗〶〛〷〚
Jeff Treviño
PhD Candidate in Music Composition
@ the University of California, San Diego
〖〠〗〶〛〷〚《〠》】〶
Skype: jeffreytrevino
E-mail: [hidden email]
Web: www.jeffreytrevino.com
〚《〠》】〶【〖〠〗〶〛〷
9310H Redwood Dr.
La Jolla, CA 92037
USA
〖〠〗〶〛〷〚《〠》】〶【

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RE: Requesting an addition

Mark Stephen Mrotek

A commentary on various interpretations of Haydn’s ornaments in general and the “turn” in particular can be read at:

 

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=28410.0

 

Mark

 

From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=[hidden email] [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Trevino
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 8:37 PM
To: lilypond-user
Subject: Re: Requesting an addition

 

"So what's the sanest course with regard to new articulations?"

From the perspective of contemporary music, the sanest course is to provide basic utilities for drawing arbitrarily complex symbols in specified locations, which Lilypond sort of does/doesn't have.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:59 AM, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> wrote:

Werner LEMBERG <[hidden email]> writes:


>> I'm not sure if this the right place to ask this, but I'd be willing
>> to send somebody some money via Paypal to add the so-called "Haydn
>> turn" (reversed turn with vertical slash) to Lilypond.
>
> Please provide a scan (or a link to it) of such a symbol which you
> consider as good-looking..
>
>> I have no idea how much work this would take and what the going rate
>> for a feature like this is.
>
> If an existing symbol can be reused, implementing this is rather
> straightforward, and a few hours of work will do.  A design from
> scratch probably needs three or four times as long.

By the way: how is the relation to other music fonts?  If we invent a

new articulation, music fonts from other sources will not know about it,
or we won't know about what they have.  And even if we puzzle
articulations together from pieces, they won't fit together just the
same in other music fonts.

So what's the sanest course with regard to new articulations?  This is
not really related to this particular addition, but it generally makes
me wonder.

--
David Kastrup



_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user




--
《〠》】〶【〖〠〗〶〛〷〚
Jeff Treviño
PhD Candidate in Music Composition
@ the University of California, San Diego
〠〗〶〛〷〚《〠》】〶
Skype: jeffreytrevino
E-mail: [hidden email]
Web: www.jeffreytrevino.com
〚《〠》】〶【〖〠〗〶〛〷
9310H Redwood Dr.
La Jolla, CA 92037
USA
〠〗〶〛〷〚《〠》】〶【


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Re: Requesting an addition

Michael Rivers
In reply to this post by Werner LEMBERG
I'll insert a scan of the "Haydn ornament" from the preface that Alfred includes in its editions of Haydn keyboard works. It looks pretty good to me.

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Re: Requesting an addition

Nick Payne-3
On 23/01/13 07:04, Michael Rivers wrote:
> I'll insert a scan of the "Haydn ornament" from the preface that Alfred
> includes in its editions of Haydn keyboard works. It looks pretty good to
> me.
>
> <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n139974/Haydn_ornament.jpg>
A slight adaptation of what was suggested in 2009 gets pretty close.
Unlike a normal turn, you have to use ^ (or _) before \

\version "2.17.9"

haydnturn = \markup { \halign #-0.6 {
   \combine
     \vcenter \center-align \musicglyph #"scripts.reverseturn"
     \vcenter \center-align \fontsize #3.5 "|"
} }

\relative c' {
   \stemUp c4\reverseturn c'\reverseturn c,^\haydnturn c'^\haydnturn
}

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hturn.png (2K) Download Attachment
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Re: Requesting an addition

Nick Payne-3
On 23/01/13 07:29, Nick Payne wrote:

> On 23/01/13 07:04, Michael Rivers wrote:
>> I'll insert a scan of the "Haydn ornament" from the preface that Alfred
>> includes in its editions of Haydn keyboard works. It looks pretty
>> good to
>> me.
>>
>> <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n139974/Haydn_ornament.jpg>
> A slight adaptation of what was suggested in 2009 gets pretty close.
> Unlike a normal turn, you have to use ^ (or _) before \
>
> \version "2.17.9"
>
> haydnturn = \markup { \halign #-0.6 {
>   \combine
>     \vcenter \center-align \musicglyph #"scripts.reverseturn"
>     \vcenter \center-align \fontsize #3.5 "|"
> } }
>
> \relative c' {
>   \stemUp c4\reverseturn c'\reverseturn c,^\haydnturn c'^\haydnturn
> }

Actually, the graphic you linked to above shows a slashed turn, not a
slashed reverse turn:

haydnturn = \markup { \halign #-0.6 {
   \combine
     \vcenter \center-align \musicglyph #"scripts.turn"
     \vcenter \center-align \fontsize #3.5 "|"
} }


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Re: Requesting an addition

David Kastrup
In reply to this post by Nick Payne-3
Nick Payne <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 23/01/13 07:04, Michael Rivers wrote:
>> I'll insert a scan of the "Haydn ornament" from the preface that Alfred
>> includes in its editions of Haydn keyboard works. It looks pretty good to
>> me.
>>
>> <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n139974/Haydn_ornament.jpg>
> A slight adaptation of what was suggested in 2009 gets pretty
> close. Unlike a normal turn, you have to use ^ (or _) before \

> haydnturn = \markup { \halign #-0.6 {

Any reason you didn't just write haydnturn = -\markup ... ?

Then there would be no need for ^ or _.  Possibly also = ^\markup...
since I think trills go on top by default.


--
David Kastrup


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Re: Requesting an addition

Nick Payne-3
On 23/01/13 11:36, David Kastrup wrote:

> Nick Payne <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> On 23/01/13 07:04, Michael Rivers wrote:
>>> I'll insert a scan of the "Haydn ornament" from the preface that Alfred
>>> includes in its editions of Haydn keyboard works. It looks pretty good to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n139974/Haydn_ornament.jpg>
>> A slight adaptation of what was suggested in 2009 gets pretty
>> close. Unlike a normal turn, you have to use ^ (or _) before \
>> haydnturn = \markup { \halign #-0.6 {
> Any reason you didn't just write haydnturn = -\markup ... ?
>
> Then there would be no need for ^ or _.  Possibly also = ^\markup...
> since I think trills go on top by default.

I didn't think of it. However, using haydnturn = -\markup ... makes the
default position below the note. Using haydnturn = ^\markup ...
positions above the note and can be overridden by using _\haydnturn.

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