Remote Ensemble Playing

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
35 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Remote Ensemble Playing

Peter Gentry-2

I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router – maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms is not low enough.

Regards Peter

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

antlists
On 28/03/2020 11:00, Peter Gentry wrote:
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation
> does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder
> could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router
> – maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a
> latency of 25ms is not low enough.
>
> Regards Peter
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0KiCXZ2IM0

Stuff I've picked up elsewhere - avoid Firefox. I hate to say that, but
the evidence is that one user on that and everyone else suffers.

Cheers,
Wol

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Michael Gerdau
Did they play live?
And if so, what software/setup had been used?
It doesn’t say so in the comments.

Kind regards,
Michael

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Ralf Mattes-2
In reply to this post by antlists

Am Samstag, 28. März 2020 19:37 CET, antlists <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> On 28/03/2020 11:00, Peter Gentry wrote:
> > I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation
> > does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder
> > could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router
> > – maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a
> > latency of 25ms is not low enough.
> >
> > Regards Peter
> >
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0KiCXZ2IM0
>
> Stuff I've picked up elsewhere - avoid Firefox. I hate to say that, but
> the evidence is that one user on that and everyone else suffers.

It's not _that_ simple. This really depends on your video server software. Iff you
use a SFU then either Firefox will have to send more data (which is limited
by your upstream bandwidth which usually is much smaller than your downstream
bandwidth) our your other clients will get only one resolution/audio codec. But
that has little or nothing to do with latency. BTW, Firefox does have experimetal support
for Simulcast, you video solution just has to use it (many don't).
To the OP: there is an immanent latency in all network connections - packets need to
pass through switches and routers, and let's not forget the speed of electrical signals.
While one can get pretty low latency on local networks (Dante et al.) trying live jamming
over the internet is pretty much impossible.

 Cheers, RalfD

> Cheers,
> Wol
>



--
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Ralf Mattes-2
In reply to this post by Michael Gerdau

Am Samstag, 28. März 2020 19:52 CET, Michael Gerdau <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> Did they play live?

Looks (and sounds) like the all play to the same clicktrack ....

 Cheers, RalfD

> And if so, what software/setup had been used?
> It doesn’t say so in the comments.
>
> Kind regards,
> Michael
>



--
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

antlists
In reply to this post by Ralf Mattes-2
On 28/03/2020 18:55, Ralf Mattes wrote:
> To the OP: there is an immanent latency in all network connections - packets need to
> pass through switches and routers, and let's not forget the speed of electrical signals.
> While one can get pretty low latency on local networks (Dante et al.) trying live jamming
> over the internet is pretty much impossible.

Well, I shall soon find out ... a band I play for has scheduled a
practice for Easter Saturday ...

Cheers,
Wol

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Adam Good-3
In reply to this post by Peter Gentry-2
My friend in California and I (in Brooklyn, NY) had some pretty decent luck with Jactrip:


Not the easiest to get set up and we need to try a few more times to troubleshoot but, give it a try and please report back!

best,
Adam
 

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 7:01 AM Peter Gentry <[hidden email]> wrote:

I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router – maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms is not low enough.

Regards Peter

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

holland@hollandhopson.com
I second Jacktrip. I’ve also had success with JamKazam: https://www.jamkazam.com/ which is easier to setup. Using ethernet cables instead of wifi helps with latency and audio quality.

I recommend a Zoom meeting or similar to help everyone work out settings, audio inputs and outputs, etc.
Holland 

On Mar 28, 2020, at 5:06 PM, Adam Good <[hidden email]> wrote:

My friend in California and I (in Brooklyn, NY) had some pretty decent luck with Jactrip:


Not the easiest to get set up and we need to try a few more times to troubleshoot but, give it a try and please report back!

best,
Adam
 

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 7:01 AM Peter Gentry <[hidden email]> wrote:

I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router – maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms is not low enough.

Regards Peter

 


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Peter Gentry-2
In reply to this post by Peter Gentry-2

Thanks for the responses. My current conclusion is that there are inherent technical issues  that are insurmountable. If there was a good solution it would be visible on the web.

 

My way forward is to record and distribute various pieces using midi or YouTube downloads (if available) so that members can practice and be perfect when we can meet up again.

 

Keep safe everyone.

 

Regards Peter

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Urs Liska-3
Am Sonntag, den 29.03.2020, 11:34 +0100 schrieb Peter Gentry:

Thanks for the responses. My current conclusion is that there are inherent technical issues  that are insurmountable. If there was a good solution it would be visible on the web.

 

My way forward is to record and distribute various pieces using midi or YouTube downloads (if available) so that members can practice and be perfect when we can meet up again.


I think that's the proper way to go forward. I'm working on making a music university "go online" for the spring semester, and of course we have lots of settings where realtime coordination is/would be a crucial factor.

My take on this is that it will definitely be possible to have students learn important things, but it won't necessarily be the same as they learn usually. It's fair to concentrate on specific topics, maybe considering them from unusual perspectives.

Best Urs

 

Keep safe everyone.

 

Regards Peter

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Graham King-4
For those not deterred by network latency, Making Music has put up a page of suggestions[1].  (Making Music is a UK-based organisation that provides information, advice, advocacy and various other services for amateur music groups)

[1] https://www.makingmusic.org.uk/resource/covid-19-staying-connected?utm_source=Solus&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=iNotesMar2020
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Sandro Santilli-2
In reply to this post by Peter Gentry-2
On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:00:56AM -0000, Peter Gentry wrote:
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does
> anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue - I wonder could
> this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router - maybe
> only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms
> is not low enough.

The best experience I had with online playing was with ninjam:
https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/

It's an open protocol and free software implementation of a server
and a few clients (text, console, gui) for online jamming.

The idea is that everyone play on a tick (Beats Per Minute) and
everyone is ensured to always hear some previous recording of
anyone else on a defined cycle/interval (Beats Per Interval).

Depending on how the server is configured (easy to setup) the
BPM and BPI values can be fixed or driven by votes. Protocol
includes a chat and is text based for commands (like: "!vote bpm 60").

Some public servers do exist, which also support automatic recording
of resulting sessions ("autosong", the software doing this, is also
part of the main ninjam source code repository).

See http://ninbot.com/pubservers for a community curated list of
public servers. See top-level page for recordings of jams played
on ninbot.com servers.

An easy to setup QT based free software client is http://jamtaba.com

--strk;


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Dr Nicholas J Bailey
In reply to this post by Peter Gentry-2
On Saturday, 28 March 2020 11:00:56 BST Peter Gentry wrote:
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does
> anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue - I wonder could
> this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router - maybe
> only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms
> is not low enough.
>
> Regards Peter

We've been trying that, and so have Glasgow University Chapel Choir with
hilarious results. See

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?
story_fbid=3271515439543488&id=215071425187920

(At the end you discover they are really very good!)

Maybe try one of the low-latency programs like Jamulus?

http://llcon.sourceforge.net/index.html

What would be really good would be to find such an application which could
follow the conductor  and show a moving Lilypond score...

I don't trust Zoom anyway.  Why has it got more than 20000 open file
descriptors? What's it doing  with my files??

$ lsof | grep -i zoom | wc -l
20811

--
The University of Glasgow, charity number SC004401





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Karlin High
In reply to this post by Peter Gentry-2
This question made me think of the "Eric Whitacre's Virtual Choir"
productions. Apparently one of those was done live via Skype. The others
had all the singers upload their own recordings, which were then
combined into the video production.
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

antlists
In reply to this post by Dr Nicholas J Bailey
On 30/03/20 10:15, Dr Nicholas Bailey wrote:
> I don't trust Zoom anyway.  Why has it got more than 20000 open file
> descriptors? What's it doing  with my files??
>
> $ lsof | grep -i zoom | wc -l
> 20811

I can't find what I was looking for, but this was mentioned recently on
LWN. Apparently it's down to naive usage of glibc ... :-(

I think it was this article https://lwn.net/Articles/814535/ , you'll
probably find it was blindly searching for a whole bunch of config files
are those descriptors are dentries for files that don't exist.

Cheers,
Wol

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Gianmaria Lari
Off topic but very interesting :)

Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?


The only information I found is this:

=====
[....]
SD What technology did you use for recording?
RP: The video might look ‘easy’ but its not. We used really professional hard and software, since we also have to protect the level of recording that we put of there Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra. Besides that we believe that the quality is part of the impact a message like this has.

(We asked Mike for further specifications). Mike adds: In general, what we do is we pre-produce a click-track which the musicians play to. Keep in mind that you have to think about tuning and intonation. Then we put all those videos in sync and work on the sound with professional studio software and equipment. [....]
=====

What does they mean with "click-track" ?

Thank you, g.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Urs Liska-3
Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 08:51 +0200 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
Off topic but very interesting :)

Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?


I think the Rotterdam Philharmonic information says it all: Most of the solutions that pop up so far are not "playing together" but playing separately to a preproduced "click track", whether this is an actual click track or a video recording of the conductor. Then every musician plays their part and someone does the digital post production.

In the Rotterdam recording you hear that the instruments are really recorded in their actual living rooms (although with professional equipment and personell normal people wouldn't have at their disposal). But I'd bet when the choir enters *that* is from an existing recording.

The Ravel is surely done the same way, and I have the impression that what you actually hear is an existing recording (just listen to the homogenity of the mix and the acoustics), so what they presumably are doing is essentially a "music video".

In a way you could consider this as cheating, but OTOH, all the classical music recording industry is built on similar cheats, and if you look at the comments on YouTube it does serve a positive social purpose.

Best
Urs

PS: Listening to this and watching in preparation to a video meeting discussing how the conductors in my music university may go forward in an "online semester".


The only information I found is this:

=====
[....]
SD What technology did you use for recording?
RP: The video might look ‘easy’ but its not. We used really professional hard and software, since we also have to protect the level of recording that we put of there Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra. Besides that we believe that the quality is part of the impact a message like this has.

(We asked Mike for further specifications). Mike adds: In general, what we do is we pre-produce a click-track which the musicians play to. Keep in mind that you have to think about tuning and intonation. Then we put all those videos in sync and work on the sound with professional studio software and equipment. [....]
=====

What does they mean with "click-track" ?

Thank you, g.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Peter Gentry-2

> On 28 Mar 2020, at 12:00, Peter Gentry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router – maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms is not low enough.
> Regards Peter

The speed of sound in air at 20 C is about 343 m/s, and the book [1] by Michael Barron, “Auditorium Acoustics and Architectural Design” says that on a distance beyond 8 meters, it becomes difficult for an ensemble to perform, which is a delay of about 23 ms.

The human internal clock runs at about 60-70 ticks per second, or about 16 ms.

One can have longer delays if everybody agrees to follow say the percussion they hear, and then resynchronize the different musicians for the audience.


1. https://books.google.com/books?id=InKLAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=distance+between+musicians+in+an+orchestra&source=bl&ots=4xlwKzzN04&sig=ACfU3U1bRnGzaor3S-xJKpyfq-wHc9ynSQ&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi29rnI6cboAhWrlIsKHQJLDL0Q6AEwC3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=distance%20between%20musicians%20in%20an%20orchestra&f=false



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Gianmaria Lari

> On 1 Apr 2020, at 08:51, Gianmaria Lari <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Off topic but very interesting :)
>
> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?
>
> https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
> https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk

At least in the first video, only one of the musicians have the wireless AirPods, the percussion, which have a such a large latency that synchronizing would be difficult. So I figure, this musician leads the performance, and the other musicans plays against that, and then it is resynchronized for the performance.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

Gianmaria Lari
In reply to this post by Urs Liska-3
Ciao Urs!

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:05, Urs Liska <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 08:51 +0200 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
Off topic but very interesting :)

Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?


I think the Rotterdam Philharmonic information says it all: Most of the solutions that pop up so far are not "playing together" but playing separately to a preproduced "click track", whether this is an actual click track or a video recording of the conductor. Then every musician plays their part and someone does the digital post production.

Could be a "click track" a "neutral" recording maybe a midi file temporized according a conductor? So that each player can play "with" the music?

I'm asking this because, of course the orchestral musician are professional, but to play an instrument part without the other instrumental parts and only following a metronome (or a video of the conductor) doesn't look easy.  

Does anyone know if this (temporized midi file) is something that people do? Or they really only watch a click track (a video with the score and the beating metronome)?

Thanks, g.
P.S. Hope my english is understandable.
12