Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond

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Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond

Erik Sandberg-2
Hi,

This kind of emails should go to the mailing lists (either -user or -devel).
CC:d to lilypond-user.

On Saturday 02 July 2005 21.51, Stephen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Have you heard whether there is a move to eliminate collisions between
> notes and dynamics?

dynamics work the same way as text. Have you read the manual section "Changing
defaults"?

> I think the code could be placed soly in the dynamics side. That is the
> dynamics avoid note, not the other way around. Perhaps that would follow
> the way engravers did it manually as the quote I found suggests.
>
> In the lilypond-user archive in a message from David Rogers in a thread
>
> called 'How to thengthen dynamis hairpin' (sic), he mentioned:
> > Some of the < and > signs do not follow these formats at all >- instead,
> > presumably intended as more "general" signs, they >cover whole bars or
> > several bars, and are obviously placed >without regard to note positions.
>
> .>
>
> >It also appears that they are one of the first things to be >modified,
> >often in asymmetrical ways, in case of collision or >near-collision with
> >anything else. Perhaps as if they were >placed last, being only straight
> >lines and relatively easy to >"fit in".
>
> This idea of moving the dynamics around the notes strikes me as the most
> workable, since you can then have a heirarchy of collision avoidance
> starting with the existing note collision aviodance without needing to
> modify that. I also think it would be the most attractive since the
> placement of notes really takes precedence over the placement of the
> dynamics both visually and functionally. And finaly it would probably
> reflect the way music engraving has been done historically.

Yes, moving the dynamics is probably how it should be fixed.

> But anyway, have you heard whether anyone is working on dynamic collision?

No, but the problem of text collision in general is on the far-future todo.

BTW, there's no explicit bug in our bug archive about dynamics colliding with
notes; can you send a short .ly example when this occurs?

--
Erik Sandberg
Maintainer of the Lilypond bug CVS archive,
http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/lilypond/lily-bugs/bugs/
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.5/bugs/out/index.html



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Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond

Graham Percival

On 4-Jul-05, at 2:09 AM, Erik Sandberg wrote:

> On Saturday 02 July 2005 21.51, Stephen wrote:
>> Have you heard whether there is a move to eliminate collisions between
>> notes and dynamics?
>
> dynamics work the same way as text. Have you read the manual section
> "Changing
> defaults"?

There are no collisions[1] between notes and dynamics -- at least, not
for
notes in a single Voice.  If you've got polyphony, collisions may
occur.  And
there's certainly collisions between dynamics and slurs.

See 4.3 Fixing overlapping notation and Changing Defaults
for some suggestions on fixing it.

[1] by "no collisions", I mean "there should be none".  I'm not ruling
out
undocumented bugs, of course.  :)

Cheers,
- Graham



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Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond

Mats Bengtsson-6
In reply to this post by Erik Sandberg-2

Quoting Erik Sandberg <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> This kind of emails should go to the mailing lists (either -user or -devel).
> CC:d to lilypond-user.
>
> On Saturday 02 July 2005 21.51, Stephen wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Have you heard whether there is a move to eliminate collisions between
> > notes and dynamics?
>
> dynamics work the same way as text.
Except that the properties should be set on another layout object
than the TextScript.

> Have you read the manual section
> "Changing
> defaults"?
>
>...
> BTW, there's no explicit bug in our bug archive about dynamics colliding with
> notes; can you send a short .ly example when this occurs?

Dynamics will always be placed at a minimum distance from the
note it is attached to (thanks to the padding property), but it
may very well collide with the following notes.

   /Mats



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Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond

Stephen-7
Mats wrote:
From: "Mats Bengtsson" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:41 AM
Subject: Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond


>
> Quoting Erik Sandberg <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This kind of emails should go to the mailing lists (either -user
>> or -devel).
>> CC:d to lilypond-user.
>>
>> On Saturday 02 July 2005 21.51, Stephen wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Have you heard whether there is a move to eliminate collisions between
>> > notes and dynamics?
>>
>> dynamics work the same way as text.
> Except that the properties should be set on another layout object
> than the TextScript.

That would be DynamicText. I just started extra-offset to move those around.
It is different from Text in that it uses a different font, it only contains
the letters needed for absolute dynamics: p, f, s, z, and r. I think.

But it needs to have even more of a distinction from text than it has;
unlike text which is a line and has a horizontal span which can only be
meaningfully placed above or below the note it is attatched to, an absolute
dynamic is more of a symbol which should be able to be placed above, below,
or to the left of the note, like a fingering indication. In fact, Absolute
Dynamics are typically to the left of its note in piano music when they are
not centered between the staves. When they are running horizontally between
the staves, the Dynamic is meant to affect all voices simutaneously.

Stephen

>
>> Have you read the manual section
>> "Changing
>> defaults"?
>>
>>...
>> BTW, there's no explicit bug in our bug archive about dynamics colliding
>> with
>> notes; can you send a short .ly example when this occurs?
>
> Dynamics will always be placed at a minimum distance from the
> note it is attached to (thanks to the padding property), but it
> may very well collide with the following notes.
>
>   /Mats
>



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Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond

Mats Bengtsson-6
In reply to this post by Mats Bengtsson-6
Quoting Stephen <[hidden email]>:

> Mats wrote:
> From: "Mats Bengtsson" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:41 AM
> Subject: Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond
>
>
> >
> > Quoting Erik Sandberg <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> This kind of emails should go to the mailing lists (either -user
> >> or -devel).
> >> CC:d to lilypond-user.
> >>
> >> On Saturday 02 July 2005 21.51, Stephen wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Have you heard whether there is a move to eliminate collisions between
> >> > notes and dynamics?
> >>
> >> dynamics work the same way as text.
> > Except that the properties should be set on another layout object
> > than the TextScript.
>
> That would be DynamicText. I just started extra-offset to move those around.

Actually, as long as you just want to just want to adjust the
vertical position, it's better to set the padding property of
the DynamicLineSpanner object (see the reference in the manual
section on Dynamics), so (de)crescendi get aligned the same way
as the absolute dynamics.

> But it needs to have even more of a distinction from text than it has;
> unlike text which is a line and has a horizontal span which can only be
> meaningfully placed above or below the note it is attatched to, an absolute
> dynamic is more of a symbol which should be able to be placed above, below,
> or to the left of the note, like a fingering indication. In fact, Absolute
> Dynamics are typically to the left of its note in piano music when they are
> not centered between the staves. When they are running horizontally between
> the staves, the Dynamic is meant to affect all voices simutaneously.

I haven't seen dynamics to the left of a note, but I don't play piano
that often. On the other hand, I haven't seen any similar feature request
earlier on the mailing lists, so I guess the main developers would
appreciate some references (send them to lilypond-devel).


   /Mats



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Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond

Stephen-7

Mats wrote:
From: "Mats Bengtsson" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond


> Quoting Stephen <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Mats wrote:
>> From: "Mats Bengtsson" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: note and dynamics collisions in lilypond
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Quoting Erik Sandberg <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> This kind of emails should go to the mailing lists (either -user
>> >> or -devel).
>> >> CC:d to lilypond-user.
>> >>
>> >> On Saturday 02 July 2005 21.51, Stephen wrote:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Have you heard whether there is a move to eliminate collisions
>> >> > between
>> >> > notes and dynamics?
>> >>
>> >> dynamics work the same way as text.
>> > Except that the properties should be set on another layout object
>> > than the TextScript.
>>
>> That would be DynamicText. I just started extra-offset to move those
>> around.
>
> Actually, as long as you just want to just want to adjust the
> vertical position, it's better to set the padding property of
> the DynamicLineSpanner object (see the reference in the manual
> section on Dynamics), so (de)crescendi get aligned the same way
> as the absolute dynamics.
vertical position? I am not sure what that means, I want to move the dynamic
text to the left. Absolute Dynamics by themselves are just text with no
span, whereas hairpins and crescendi do have a span. I am saying that it
should be a standard option to place an Absolute Dynanic to the left of a
note, not a Haripin. Hairpins can only be placed above or below the notes
they are attached to.

Does anyone know the difference between DynamicLineSpanner and
DynamicTextSpanner?

>
>> But it needs to have even more of a distinction from text than it has;
>> unlike text which is a line and has a horizontal span which can only be
>> meaningfully placed above or below the note it is attatched to, an
>> absolute
>> dynamic is more of a symbol which should be able to be placed above,
>> below,
>> or to the left of the note, like a fingering indication. In fact,
>> Absolute
>> Dynamics are typically to the left of its note in piano music when they
>> are
>> not centered between the staves. When they are running horizontally
>> between
>> the staves, the Dynamic is meant to affect all voices simutaneously.
>
> I haven't seen dynamics to the left of a note, but I don't play piano
> that often. On the other hand, I haven't seen any similar feature request
> earlier on the mailing lists, so I guess the main developers would
> appreciate some references (send them to lilypond-devel).
You're right, the most common placement of dynamics in piano music is
between the staves and not directly attached to any particular note. So use
the Piano centered dynamics Template for that. But if you discount the
dynamics centered between the staves and the dynamics attached to a Hairpin
or  DynamicTextSpanner, then of the Absolute Dynamics specifically attached
to a note are attached below the note, above the note, or to the left of the
note. This usually occurs in polyphonic music and the dynamic is meant to
affect the voice the note is in, not both staves.

As an example of what I am talking about, I am attaching the Preludium I am
working on from Shoenberg's Keyboard Suite, Op. 25.

Stephen

>
>
>   /Mats
>

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