Re: missing term in Icking glossary

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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Graham Percival

On 14-Jul-05, at 4:15 AM, M. den Teuling wrote:

> Christian Mondrup suggested to me to report a missing term in the
> gossary : tenuto. I had the term myself forgotten even in Dutch, and
> so I really missed it. Its opposite staccato is present. If there is a
> term (in Dutch or English or whatsoever) for the decrescendo sign >
> applied to one note it is missing too

Thanks.  I believe the term for > applied to one note is accent, which
is present in
the glossary.

I've added an entry for tenuto, but I don't know how to write it in
other language.  Could
anybody help?

Italian, english: tenuto.

ES - Spanish
F - French
D - German
NL - Dutch
DK - Danish
S - Swedish
FI - Finnish


Cheers,
- Graham



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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

David Raleigh Arnold-2
Graham Percival wrote:
>
> On 14-Jul-05, at 4:15 AM, M. den Teuling wrote:
>
>> Christian Mondrup suggested to me to report a missing term in the
>> gossary : tenuto. I had the term myself forgotten even in Dutch, and
>> so I really missed it. Its opposite staccato is present.

The opposite of staccato is legato.

The reality is that the tenuto mark "-" really doesn't mean anything
very specific, applied to notes that are assumed to be legato anyway,
so it is usually used to point out certain notes, like the entrance
of the subject in a fugue, or it may be the equivalent of an accent
mark. Maybe you could call detache' the opposite of tenuto, but it
isn't really.  daveA


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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Luis Guillermo Agudelo

I agree with this comment. Tenuto is not the opposite to stacatto. however I
believe that detache' is not the opposite of tenuto either.

My understanding of tenuto is to sustain or to hold but I wish some of the
italian speakers in this list help us out with a better definition.

By the way, In spanish we pretty much always go by the italian terms when
speaking of music, so we use tenuto as well.

Cheers,
Luis

>From: David Raleigh Arnold <[hidden email]>
>CC: bug-lilypond <[hidden email]>,lilypond-user Mailinglist
><[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: missing term in Icking glossary
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:32:45 -0400
>
>Graham Percival wrote:
> >
> > On 14-Jul-05, at 4:15 AM, M. den Teuling wrote:
> >
> >> Christian Mondrup suggested to me to report a missing term in the
> >> gossary : tenuto. I had the term myself forgotten even in Dutch, and
> >> so I really missed it. Its opposite staccato is present.
>
>The opposite of staccato is legato.
>
>The reality is that the tenuto mark "-" really doesn't mean anything
>very specific, applied to notes that are assumed to be legato anyway,
>so it is usually used to point out certain notes, like the entrance
>of the subject in a fugue, or it may be the equivalent of an accent
>mark. Maybe you could call detache' the opposite of tenuto, but it
>isn't really.  daveA
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>lilypond-user mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Donald Axel
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:14:06 -0400
Luis wrote:

> I agree with this comment. Tenuto is not the opposite to
> staccato. However I believe that detache' is not the opposite of
> tenuto either.

That is good! yes! Tenuto means as long as possible but still with a
pointed start of the tone (ansats/ansatz in Danish, I cannot find
the English equivalent)

Tenuto means keep-it-long, tenere means to keep or hold.

Detache means kept apart, divided, in violin it means a kind of
quick bowing on shorter notes which gives the notes "ansatz" and
otherwise is very flowing. You could say "fast tenuto".



> My understanding of tenuto is to sustain or to hold but I wish
> some of the italian speakers in this list help us out with a
> better definition.
>
> By the way, In Spanish we pretty much always go by the Italian
> terms when speaking of music, so we use tenuto as well.

Italian is the global music language and it is a pity that we
cannot speak more italian all of us. We should look up Italian
words every time we see them.

http://www.google.com/language_tools




--
dax2-tele2adsl:dk -- http://d-axel.dk/  Donald Axel


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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

libero.mureddu3
In reply to this post by Graham Percival
Hi!
In finnish this symbol is called "viiva" or "tenuto".

 But generally, tenuto means , inside the "non legato" situations, the opposite
of staccatissimo: it is not legato (not yet), but you have to keep the duration
of the note until his end, where staccatissimo is the shortest duration possible.
A tradition in piano revision of Bach's music for harpsicord (and a performance
practice), used to evidentiate every subject entrance of the slow fugues
with this sign, however it is not an accent: the attack is not so quick,
the sound is not so "sharp" and the result should be more "deep" and not
so brilliant.
In romantic and post romantic music (also in vocal part), his meaning is
to put in evidence, and sustain the sound, often "con espressione", but not
"legato".
In my experience, in contemporary music, the meaning is the same but without
this kind of "espressione" :-)
Maybe, the best for the general practice, is to find the definition of a
book like the Kurt Stone "Music Notation in the Twentieth Century", or something
similar, unfortunately I dont'have nothing similar with me.
And, finally, if the tenuto sign is associated with slur, in string music,
it means "portato" or "louré" that is a particular kind of legato bowing.
If we want to talk of opposites, in strings, a better opposite of "détaché"
is "legato".

Ciao

Libero Mureddu


>-- Original Message --
>From: "Luis Guillermo Agudelo" <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: missing term in Icking glossary
>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:14:06 -0400
>
>
>
>I agree with this comment. Tenuto is not the opposite to stacatto. however
>I
>believe that detache' is not the opposite of tenuto either.
>
>My understanding of tenuto is to sustain or to hold but I wish some of the
>
>italian speakers in this list help us out with a better definition.
>
>By the way, In spanish we pretty much always go by the italian terms when
>
>speaking of music, so we use tenuto as well.
>
>Cheers,
>Luis
>
>>From: David Raleigh Arnold <[hidden email]>
>>CC: bug-lilypond <[hidden email]>,lilypond-user Mailinglist
>><[hidden email]>
>>Subject: Re: missing term in Icking glossary
>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:32:45 -0400
>>
>>Graham Percival wrote:
>> >
>> > On 14-Jul-05, at 4:15 AM, M. den Teuling wrote:
>> >
>> >> Christian Mondrup suggested to me to report a missing term in the
>> >> gossary : tenuto. I had the term myself forgotten even in Dutch, and
>> >> so I really missed it. Its opposite staccato is present.
>>
>>The opposite of staccato is legato.
>>
>>The reality is that the tenuto mark "-" really doesn't mean anything
>>very specific, applied to notes that are assumed to be legato anyway,
>>so it is usually used to point out certain notes, like the entrance
>>of the subject in a fugue, or it may be the equivalent of an accent
>>mark. Maybe you could call detache' the opposite of tenuto, but it
>>isn't really.  daveA
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>lilypond-user mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>[hidden email]
>http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user





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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

David Raleigh Arnold-2
[hidden email] wrote:
> Hi!
> In finnish this symbol is called "viiva" or "tenuto".
>
>  But generally, tenuto means

I tried to avoid the issue by confining my remark to
the tenuto *mark*.  One can define "tenuto" as "holding"
and leave it at that, but the mark "-" is in the real
world composer-specific in meaning.  A frank admission
of that, no matter how worded, would be very nice in the
glossary.

At least there has been no change in the mark, has there?
Staccato changed from a wedge to a dot.  Carcassi tried to
avoid a problem there by putting "Staccato" at the beginning
of an etude instead of picking the wedge or the dot.  That direction is
almost universally ignored today.  :-)  daveA


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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Han-Wen Nienhuys
David Raleigh Arnold wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>Hi!
>>In finnish this symbol is called "viiva" or "tenuto".
>>
>> But generally, tenuto means
>
>
> I tried to avoid the issue by confining my remark to
> the tenuto *mark*.  One can define "tenuto" as "holding"
> and leave it at that, but the mark "-" is in the real
> world composer-specific in meaning.  A frank admission
> of that, no matter how worded, would be very nice in the
> glossary.

I would say that this is a more  universal observation. E.g. the
interpretation of sfz ,  > and ^ also depend on the composer/era.

--
  Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

joe ferguson
My experience is pretty well limited the choral literature.  In that
genre  the usual interpretation of the tenuto is one of subtle emphasis,
as an indication of phrasing.

Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:

> David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
>
>> [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>> In finnish this symbol is called "viiva" or "tenuto".
>>>
>>> But generally, tenuto means
>>
>>
>>
>> I tried to avoid the issue by confining my remark to
>> the tenuto *mark*.  One can define "tenuto" as "holding"
>> and leave it at that, but the mark "-" is in the real
>> world composer-specific in meaning.  A frank admission
>> of that, no matter how worded, would be very nice in the
>> glossary.
>
>
> I would say that this is a more  universal observation. E.g. the
> interpretation of sfz ,  > and ^ also depend on the composer/era.
>

--
Joe Ferguson




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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

libero.mureddu3
In reply to this post by Graham Percival
>-- Original Message --
>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:10:07 +0200
>From: Han-Wen Nienhuys <[hidden email]>
>To: David Raleigh Arnold <[hidden email]>
>CC: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: missing term in Icking glossary

>
>I would say that this is a more  universal observation. E.g. the
>interpretation of sfz ,  > and ^ also depend on the composer/era.
>
>--
>  Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

Hi,
I agree with you, Han-Wen, I was just writing the same.
In any case, my explanation about "tenuto" was mainly referred to the "tenuto"
sign, not only the meaning of the word in italian or in music notation.
I tried to find a general definition, and I think that "hold the note for
its entire duration" is pretty good.
The only problem can be inside piano music, where is not so easy to define
"legato" in the same way like for winds or strings, in which you can play
more notes in the same breath or bow without repeating the attack.
Anyway, there is an interesting links with explanation/translation of many
italian words-expression:
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory21.htm

Ciao

Libero Mureddu




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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Trevor Bača-2
In reply to this post by Donald Axel
On 7/29/05, dax2 <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
> That is good! yes! Tenuto means as long as possible but still with a
> pointed start of the tone (ansats/ansatz in Danish, I cannot find
> the English equivalent)

"attack".

As in, "attack the note directly and with emphasis" or "when we look
at a spectrograph of the sound, we see that there is a lot of harmonic
activity during the note's attack." If you wanted you could say
"onset" (to calque directly from German, Danish, etc) but the term
that everybody uses is "attack". Compare with "release" which would be
the opposite - how all sorts of microscopically small details of
playing are handled right at the end of the note.

Trevor.


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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Paul Scott-3
In reply to this post by joe ferguson
joe ferguson wrote:

> My experience is pretty well limited the choral literature.  In that
> genre  the usual interpretation of the tenuto is one of subtle
> emphasis, as an indication of phrasing.
>
> Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>
>>
>> I would say that this is a more  universal observation. E.g. the
>> interpretation of sfz ,  > and ^ also depend on the composer/era.
>
IOW I don't care what you call it.  I just want to be able to engrave
the musical symbol.  We could discuss how to interpret it for a long
time but that's not really the job of the LilyPond docs.

Paul Scott



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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

David Raleigh Arnold-2
Paul Scott wrote:

> joe ferguson wrote:
>
>> My experience is pretty well limited the choral literature.  In that
>> genre  the usual interpretation of the tenuto is one of subtle
>> emphasis, as an indication of phrasing.
>>
>> Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I would say that this is a more  universal observation. E.g. the
>>> interpretation of sfz ,  > and ^ also depend on the composer/era.
>>
>>
> IOW I don't care what you call it.  I just want to be able to engrave
> the musical symbol.  We could discuss how to interpret it for a long
> time but that's not really the job of the LilyPond docs.

The glossary is supposed to deal with how to interpret it.

Who disagrees that the tenuto mark is the worst
dog's dinner in music notation?  As long as the glossary entry
makes clear that it's interpretation is not certain I would think
that few would object.  A list giving a variety of different definitions
might help.  daveA


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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Graham Percival

On 29-Jul-05, at 2:19 PM, David Raleigh Arnold wrote:

> Paul Scott wrote:
>> IOW I don't care what you call it.  I just want to be able to engrave
>> the musical symbol.  We could discuss how to interpret it for a long
>> time but that's not really the job of the LilyPond docs.

Exactly.

> The glossary is supposed to deal with how to interpret it.

Actually the glossary is more of a "translation" document
than an actual "glossary".  So I'm really not interested in discussing
how the mark is interpreted in various contexts.

In case anybody missed it, I'm looking for terms for the -- mark;
in italian it's called "tenuto".   I'm still missing the following
languages:

F:
D:
NL:
DK:
S:

> Who disagrees that the tenuto mark is the worst
> dog's dinner in music notation?  As long as the glossary entry

Heh, not me.

- Graham



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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

libero.mureddu3
Hi,
in french is "tenuto".
ciao

Libero Mureddu





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Re: missing term in Icking glossary

Mats Bengtsson-6
In reply to this post by Graham Percival
> In case anybody missed it, I'm looking for terms for the -- mark;
> in italian it's called "tenuto".   I'm still missing the following
> languages:
>
> F:
> D:
> NL:
> DK:
> S:

It's "tenuto" in Swedish as well!

    /Mats



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