Re: lilypond bug 2368

[Colin Hall-3]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 05:32:28PM +0200, Karol Majewski wrote:
>
> Is it possible to mark 2368 bug as critical? I think this kind of
> regression is a serious problem. Just take a look at my last
> comment:
>
> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2368#c6

I agree with you that the notation output is not correct, especially
in the sample you provide in comment 6.

I'm going to do my best to explain why this issue should not be marked
critical. I hope that others will correct my statements as necessary.

You might not be aware that there are several open issues for Lilypond
that relate to the typesetting of ties and slurs. For example see
issue 298, referenced from issue 2368.

http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=298

There are others.

As I understand it the development team have identified that a better
implementation of ties is possible but requires aesthetic design work
to establish how this feature should work before technical
implementation work can begin. The technical work may be substantial.

Janek has a study of Lilypond's typesetting of ties and slurs which is
work in progress and which may provide the aesthetic design we
need. He mentioned it in response to your original bug report:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2012-02/msg01203.html

So, in the meantime, I believe issues like 2368 and 298 are not being
marked as critical because they are considered to be outside the
feature set of Lilypond at this time.

Cheers,
Colin.

--

Colin Hall

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[Janek Warchoł-2]

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Colin Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 05:32:28PM +0200, Karol Majewski wrote:
>>
>> Is it possible to mark 2368 bug as critical? I think this kind of
>> regression is a serious problem. Just take a look at my last
>> comment:
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2368#c6
>
> I agree with you that the notation output is not correct, especially
> in the sample you provide in comment 6.
>
> I'm going to do my best to explain why this issue should not be marked
> critical. I hope that others will correct my statements as necessary.
>
> You might not be aware that there are several open issues for Lilypond
> that relate to the typesetting of ties and slurs. For example see
> issue 298, referenced from issue 2368.
>
> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=298
>
> There are others.
>
> As I understand it the development team have identified that a better
> implementation of ties is possible but requires aesthetic design work
> to establish how this feature should work before technical
> implementation work can begin. The technical work may be substantial.

Yes, i do think that it will make more sense to rewrite tie code
bearing in mind all bad tie cases instead of fixing the issues one by
one.  Besides, i suppose that marking this as critical will have only
one result: next stable release will be postponed for 3 months or so.
It won't make the bug fixed immediately, nor even soon.

> Janek has a study of Lilypond's typesetting of ties and slurs which is
> work in progress and which may provide the aesthetic design we
> need. He mentioned it in response to your original bug report:
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2012-02/msg01203.html

Yes.  The bad news is that i won't have time to finish it until
summer.  However, if there's anyone willing to finish it, i can share
my results and provide some guidance.  The task requires aesthetic
sense and analytical skills, and i estimate 40 hours of work is needed
to finish the tie analysis - no idea how long implementation will
take.

Bottom line: find someone to finish tie report and implement it's
conclusions (or pay David to implement them - i will add €50 from
myself if this is done before May 15).

i hope that didn't sound too discouraging :)
Janek

PS Karol, are you a (former) student of Warsaw University of
Technology, Faculty of Electronics (Elka)?

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[Karol Majewski-2]

OK, thanks for explanation! Actually, I've menaged to solve my problem by
entering hidden notes with unHidden slur in separate voice. Now the tie
refers to the right notes and appeals to my sense of aesthetic - despite
colliding with an accidental (take a look at the attachment).

Janek, I'm not a student of Politechnika Warszawska - neither former nor
present. I'm a former student of Akademia Muzyczna w Gdańsku :)

Best Wishes
Karol Majewski


2012/4/11 Janek Warchoł <[hidden email]>

> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Colin Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 05:32:28PM +0200, Karol Majewski wrote:
> >>
> >> Is it possible to mark 2368 bug as critical? I think this kind of
> >> regression is a serious problem. Just take a look at my last
> >> comment:
> >>
> >> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2368#c6
> >
> > I agree with you that the notation output is not correct, especially
> > in the sample you provide in comment 6.
> >
> > I'm going to do my best to explain why this issue should not be marked
> > critical. I hope that others will correct my statements as necessary.
> >
> > You might not be aware that there are several open issues for Lilypond
> > that relate to the typesetting of ties and slurs. For example see
> > issue 298, referenced from issue 2368.
> >
> > http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=298
> >
> > There are others.
> >
> > As I understand it the development team have identified that a better
> > implementation of ties is possible but requires aesthetic design work
> > to establish how this feature should work before technical
> > implementation work can begin. The technical work may be substantial.
>
> Yes, i do think that it will make more sense to rewrite tie code
> bearing in mind all bad tie cases instead of fixing the issues one by
> one.  Besides, i suppose that marking this as critical will have only
> one result: next stable release will be postponed for 3 months or so.
> It won't make the bug fixed immediately, nor even soon.
>
> > Janek has a study of Lilypond's typesetting of ties and slurs which is
> > work in progress and which may provide the aesthetic design we
> > need. He mentioned it in response to your original bug report:
> >
> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2012-02/msg01203.html
>
> Yes.  The bad news is that i won't have time to finish it until
> summer.  However, if there's anyone willing to finish it, i can share
> my results and provide some guidance.  The task requires aesthetic
> sense and analytical skills, and i estimate 40 hours of work is needed
> to finish the tie analysis - no idea how long implementation will
> take.
>
> Bottom line: find someone to finish tie report and implement it's
> conclusions (or pay David to implement them - i will add EURO 50 from
> myself if this is done before May 15).
>
> i hope that didn't sound too discouraging :)
> Janek
>
> PS Karol, are you a (former) student of Warsaw University of
> Technology, Faculty of Electronics (Elka)?
>

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[Janek Warchoł-2]

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Karol Majewski
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> OK, thanks for explanation! Actually, I've menaged to solve my problem by
> entering hidden notes with unHidden slur in separate voice. Now the tie
> refers to the right notes and appeals to my sense of aesthetic - despite
> colliding with an accidental (take a look at the attachment).

I see additional dots, you may want to hide them as well.
As for the tie, a perfect solution would involve not only avoiding
accidental, but also moving the augmentation dot a bit... there's a
lot of work to be done on ties.

> Janek, I'm not a student of Politechnika Warszawska - neither former nor
> present. I'm a former student of Akademia Muzyczna w Gdańsku :)

Ah :)  I found a Karol-Majewski-Elka-student on the net and thought it
may be you.
Nice to see people from Poland!
Are you interested in becoming a contributor? ;)
BTW, i will take the opportunity for an obvious self-promotion: see
how i represent our country in LilyPond newsletter
http://news.lilynet.net/?The-LilyPond-Report-25 !

best,
Janek

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[Phil Holmes-2]

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Karol Majewski
  To: Janek Warchoł
  Cc: LilyPond Developmet Team ; Lilypond Bugs
  Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:33 PM
  Subject: Re: lilypond bug 2368


  OK, thanks for explanation! Actually, I've menaged to solve my problem by entering hidden notes with unHidden slur in separate voice. Now the tie refers to the right notes and appeals to my sense of aesthetic - despite colliding with an accidental (take a look at the attachment).

  Janek, I'm not a student of Politechnika Warszawska - neither former nor present. I'm a former student of Akademia Muzyczna w Gdańsku :)

  Best Wishes
  Karol Majewski
Check my suggestion at http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2368 - it works better and is designed for this.



--
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[Karol Majewski-2]

Thank you Phil.

Dear LilyPond friends: Janek, Phil, Colin,

I have another big problem now. I'm trying to find a global setting that
would allow to ignore collisions between ties and accidentals. For me, a
tie-accidental collision looks a way better than a shifted tie - especially
in tied chords in which one of the ties is unnaturaly shifted horizontaly.
I'm almost sure that it is possible to achieve this, but I don't know how.

Best wishes

PS Janek, I saw that report. I really appreciate your contribution :)




W dniu 13 kwietnia 2012 16:10 użytkownik Phil Holmes
<[hidden email]>napisał:

> **
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Karol Majewski <[hidden email]>
> *To:* Janek Warchoł <[hidden email]>
> *Cc:* LilyPond Developmet Team <[hidden email]> ; Lilypond Bugs<[hidden email]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:33 PM
> *Subject:* Re: lilypond bug 2368
>
> OK, thanks for explanation! Actually, I've menaged to solve my problem by
> entering hidden notes with unHidden slur in separate voice. Now the tie
> refers to the right notes and appeals to my sense of aesthetic - despite
> colliding with an accidental (take a look at the attachment).
>
> Janek, I'm not a student of Politechnika Warszawska - neither former nor
> present. I'm a former student of Akademia Muzyczna w Gdańsku :)
>
> Best Wishes
> Karol Majewski
>
> Check my suggestion at
> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2368 - it works better
> and is designed for this.
>
>  --
> Phil Holmes
>
>
>

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[Mark Mathias-3]

Karol,
I hope someone can help you do what you wish. It's definitely beyond my
level of expertise. From my point of view on the bug squad, this doesn't
look like something that needs to be handled by us, so I'm going to suggest
that future correspondence on this issue not be sent to the bug squad.
Thanks,
Mark

2012/4/24 Karol Majewski <[hidden email]>

> Thank you Phil.
>
> Dear LilyPond friends: Janek, Phil, Colin,
>
> I have another big problem now. I'm trying to find a global setting that
> would allow to ignore collisions between ties and accidentals. For me, a
> tie-accidental collision looks a way better than a shifted tie - especially
> in tied chords in which one of the ties is unnaturaly shifted horizontaly.
> I'm almost sure that it is possible to achieve this, but I don't know how.
>
> Best wishes
>
> PS Janek, I saw that report. I really appreciate your contribution :)
>
>
>
>
> W dniu 13 kwietnia 2012 16:10 użytkownik Phil Holmes
> <[hidden email]>napisał:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Karol Majewski <[hidden email]>
> > *To:* Janek Warchoł <[hidden email]>
> > *Cc:* LilyPond Developmet Team <[hidden email]> ; Lilypond Bugs<
> [hidden email]>
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:33 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: lilypond bug 2368
> >
> > OK, thanks for explanation! Actually, I've menaged to solve my problem by
> > entering hidden notes with unHidden slur in separate voice. Now the tie
> > refers to the right notes and appeals to my sense of aesthetic - despite
> > colliding with an accidental (take a look at the attachment).
> >
> > Janek, I'm not a student of Politechnika Warszawska - neither former nor
> > present. I'm a former student of Akademia Muzyczna w Gdańsku :)
> >
> > Best Wishes
> > Karol Majewski
> >
> > Check my suggestion at
> > http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2368 - it works
> better
> > and is designed for this.
> >
> >  --
> > Phil Holmes
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> bug-lilypond mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
>

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