Re: lay out

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Re: lay out

Mats Bengtsson-6
(Graham, or someone else, we should really try to make sure that
all commands and reserved words available in LilyPond are listed
in the Index. \layout is one of those missing. Doing such an exercise
would also help identifying what information is missing from the manual
today.)

Part of an answer to your question can be found in the
sections "Changing context default settings" and
"Defining new contexts" in the manual. There's also some
information in "Line length", but there doesn't seem to be
any introduction to the concept anywhere. For example, I couldn't
find any information on that you can put a \layout{...} block
on the top level of the file to make it apply to all scores in the
file (or at least within the \book) whereas it will only apply to
the current score if you put the declaration inside \score{...}.

    /Mats


Aaron Mehl wrote:

> Hi   all,
>
> In a previous email I asked if layout replaced paper.
> I was told to look at outputs, which I did. The paper
> output section details \paper{}
>
> but I see no mention of \layout {}
>
> where in the docs is \layout discussed?
>
> Thanks
> Aaron
>
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--
=============================================
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        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl

Ok here is where I am confused. There is a structure
for files which makes a file valid.
Then there is a grammar which must also be followed
for the lanuguage of lilypond.
 
I get the feeling after reading the docs that the
structure of lilypond is loose.

What I mean is that it appear (if I am not wrong) that
there are elements that can appear a number of places
in a document and others that can appear only in
certain places.

I want to be able to generalize and also limit the
structure of a basic lilypond file:

lets say a file with a melody only.

If I ask the question what elements must a lilypond
file have or it won't be valid structuraly will I get
an answer?

If I ask for a valid parent child relationship of
elements will I find such a thing?

This issue is compounded for me by most lilypond
examples which use includes or variables x = y
so that it is often hard to see what the structure is.

I am not complaining rather I am trying to understand.

I realize part of my problem comes from my experience
with xml/html where there are strict rules for nesting
and validity and wellformedbness...


A documentation page titled file structure should lay
down some rules for file structure instead of listing
a few of the top level elements.

I for my part find it confusing when an element is not
nested. Although I realize that with lilypond there is
less worry about missing brackets that way.

I will read some more and experiment some more and see
what I come up with.

Aaron
--- Mats Bengtsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> (Graham, or someone else, we should really try to
> make sure that
> all commands and reserved words available in
> LilyPond are listed
> in the Index. \layout is one of those missing. Doing
> such an exercise
> would also help identifying what information is
> missing from the manual
> today.)
>
> Part of an answer to your question can be found in
> the
> sections "Changing context default settings" and
> "Defining new contexts" in the manual. There's also
> some
> information in "Line length", but there doesn't seem
> to be
> any introduction to the concept anywhere. For
> example, I couldn't
> find any information on that you can put a
> \layout{...} block
> on the top level of the file to make it apply to all
> scores in the
> file (or at least within the \book) whereas it will
> only apply to
> the current score if you put the declaration inside
> \score{...}.
>
>     /Mats
>
>
> Aaron Mehl wrote:
> > Hi   all,
> >
> > In a previous email I asked if layout replaced
> paper.
> > I was told to look at outputs, which I did. The
> paper
> > output section details \paper{}
> >
> > but I see no mention of \layout {}
> >
> > where in the docs is \layout discussed?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Aaron
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > lilypond-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> >
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
> --
> =============================================
> Mats Bengtsson
> Signal Processing
> Signals, Sensors and Systems
> Royal Institute of Technology
> SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
> Sweden
> Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
>          Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
> Email: [hidden email]
> WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
> =============================================
>



               
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Re: lay out

Mats Bengtsson-6


Aaron Mehl wrote:

> Ok here is where I am confused. There is a structure
> for files which makes a file valid.
> Then there is a grammar which must also be followed
> for the lanuguage of lilypond.
>  
> I get the feeling after reading the docs that the
> structure of lilypond is loose.
>
> What I mean is that it appear (if I am not wrong) that
> there are elements that can appear a number of places
> in a document and others that can appear only in
> certain places.
>
> I want to be able to generalize and also limit the
> structure of a basic lilypond file:
>
> lets say a file with a melody only.
>
> If I ask the question what elements must a lilypond
> file have or it won't be valid structuraly will I get
> an answer?
>
> If I ask for a valid parent child relationship of
> elements will I find such a thing?
>
> This issue is compounded for me by most lilypond
> examples which use includes or variables x = y
> so that it is often hard to see what the structure is.

For me it's the opposite. I find it much harder to see
the structure if you only have a long \score{...} where
I have to scroll several pages from beginning to end.

One thing that may confuse you is that some of the structural
elements are optional. For example,
\book{
   \score{
     {c d e f}
   }
}
can be abbreviated into
{c d e f}

Probably, you wouldn't have that much problems with the basic structure
if you had a background in programming languages like Pascal or C or
Scheme than with the very strictly specified grammar of XML.
To cite Han-Wen, the strict formal definition of the input grammar
can be found in the source code file parser.yy. However, I
agree completely with you that we should have a basic description
not only of the syntax but also of the semantics of the
basic building blocks. Even though I've been using LilyPond
since version 0.0.xx, I'm still confused by some aspects,
especially when it comes to \book{...} and what happens if you
have several \layout{...} blocks at the top level.

The basic ideas, though, are not that hard. At the top level
of the file, you can have "macro definitions" xxxx = ...,
you can have \header{...} blocks, \paper{...} blocks,
\layout{...} blocks and, of course, \score{...} blocks (I've
probably forgot some others as well).
The \header and \layout can also be moved inside the \score{...}
if you wish and in that case the only apply to the current score,
otherwise they apply to all scores.

    /Mats

>
> I am not complaining rather I am trying to understand.
>
> I realize part of my problem comes from my experience
> with xml/html where there are strict rules for nesting
> and validity and wellformedbness...
>
>
> A documentation page titled file structure should lay
> down some rules for file structure instead of listing
> a few of the top level elements.
>
> I for my part find it confusing when an element is not
> nested. Although I realize that with lilypond there is
> less worry about missing brackets that way.
>
> I will read some more and experiment some more and see
> what I come up with.
>
> Aaron
> --- Mats Bengtsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>(Graham, or someone else, we should really try to
>>make sure that
>>all commands and reserved words available in
>>LilyPond are listed
>>in the Index. \layout is one of those missing. Doing
>>such an exercise
>>would also help identifying what information is
>>missing from the manual
>>today.)
>>
>>Part of an answer to your question can be found in
>>the
>>sections "Changing context default settings" and
>>"Defining new contexts" in the manual. There's also
>>some
>>information in "Line length", but there doesn't seem
>>to be
>>any introduction to the concept anywhere. For
>>example, I couldn't
>>find any information on that you can put a
>>\layout{...} block
>>on the top level of the file to make it apply to all
>>scores in the
>>file (or at least within the \book) whereas it will
>>only apply to
>>the current score if you put the declaration inside
>>\score{...}.
>>
>>    /Mats
>>
>>
>>Aaron Mehl wrote:
>>
>>>Hi   all,
>>>
>>>In a previous email I asked if layout replaced
>>
>>paper.
>>
>>>I was told to look at outputs, which I did. The
>>
>>paper
>>
>>>output section details \paper{}
>>>
>>>but I see no mention of \layout {}
>>>
>>>where in the docs is \layout discussed?
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>Aaron
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>>
>>protection around
>>
>>>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>lilypond-user mailing list
>>>[hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>>
>>--
>>=============================================
>> Mats Bengtsson
>> Signal Processing
>> Signals, Sensors and Systems
>> Royal Institute of Technology
>> SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
>> Sweden
>> Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
>>         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
>>=============================================
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Discover Yahoo!
> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
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>

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl


--- Mats Bengtsson <[hidden email]> wrote:


> For me it's the opposite. I find it much harder to
> see
> the structure if you only have a long \score{...}
> where
> I have to scroll several pages from beginning to
> end.

Well if I take docbook as an example a book can have
multiple sections no problem. The score block would in
your case be confusing because there aren't so many
structureal elements in lilypond. I created an xml
wrapper for lilypond and proposed a phrase element do
do that. The idea is that a fixed structure permits
the engraver/composer to forget about structure an
concentrate on notating. The tools force the correct
structure and the person concentrates on the grammar
of the language.

>
> One thing that may confuse you is that some of the
> structural
> elements are optional. For example,
> \book{
>    \score{
>      {c d e f}
>    }
> }
> can be abbreviated into
> {c d e f}
> yes that is confusing and why make it confusing?
Does this give more power? Does this make things
easier to notate? a tool can be trained to laydown the
structural elements in a file correctly and
automatically. This is done in docbook and it lets the
author concentrate on writing.
> Probably, you wouldn't have that much problems with
> the basic structure
> if you had a background in programming languages
> like Pascal or C or
> Scheme than with the very strictly specified grammar
> of XML.

True but I know a bit of python.  I see what you are
saying but I still say a clearly defined and enforced
structure would make the entry into lilypond much and
I mean much easier to the newbie.
> To cite Han-Wen, the strict formal definition of the
> input grammar
> can be found in the source code file parser.yy.
>
hmn part of the problem is that the base for lilypond
is a fullfleged programing language, which is what
gives it its power but also its confusion.


If you have time look at lilyxml.sourceforge.net

 
> >>Part of an answer to your question can be found in
> >>the
> >>sections "Changing context default settings"

but this should be in file structure and in a section
called layout.


and
> >>"Defining new contexts" in the manual. There's
> also
> >>some
> >>information in "Line length", but there doesn't

I will read these sections again.

Aaron


               
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Re: lay out

Erik Ronström
In reply to this post by Mats Bengtsson-6
| I see what you are saying but I still say a clearly defined
| and enforced structure would make the entry into lilypond
| much and mean much easier to the newbie.

I agree completely! IMHO, this is the single most annoying thing about
lilypond: the lack of a (obvious-to-the-user) uniform structure of the
input files. Since lilypond is defined by a grammar, it must of course
have a clearly defined structure, but where is it documented?

| > Part of an answer to your question can be found in the
| > sections "Changing context default settings"
|
| but this should be in file structure and in a section
| called layout.

Exactly! The template section is a good start, but the problem is that
is doesn't explain *why* the different templates are written the way
they are. There should definitely be a section explaining and giving
examples of the different parts of a lilypond source file!

Regards
Erik Ronstr?m


       
       
               
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Re: lay out

Erik Ronström
In reply to this post by Mats Bengtsson-6
| I see what you are saying but I still say a clearly defined
| and enforced structure would make the entry into lilypond
| much and mean much easier to the newbie.

I agree completely! IMHO, this is the single most annoying thing about
lilypond: the lack of a (obvious-to-the-user) uniform structure of the
input files. Since lilypond is defined by a grammar, it must of course
have a clearly defined structure, but where is it documented?

| > Part of an answer to your question can be found in the
| > sections "Changing context default settings"
|
| but this should be in file structure and in a section
| called layout.

Exactly! The template section is a good start, but the problem is that
is doesn't explain *why* the different templates are written the way
they are. There should definitely be a section explaining and giving
examples of the different parts of a lilypond source file!

Regards
Erik Ronstr?m


               
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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl

BTW,
for those late to this thread, my intention is not to
bash either lilypond or the docs.

Rather I am taking upon myself to write the section
file structure.

I however need to understand it. By that I mean not
from a programmers standpoint but the end user.

So that once I can setup from scratch any number of
valid structures for a lilypond file, it will be a
piece of cake to explain this to others.

Aaron

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Re: lay out

David Raleigh Arnold
In reply to this post by Erik Ronström
On Thursday 02 June 2005 05:56 pm, Erik Ronström wrote:

> | I see what you are saying but I still say a clearly defined
> | and enforced structure would make the entry into lilypond
> | much and mean much easier to the newbie.
>
> I agree completely! IMHO, this is the single most annoying thing about
> lilypond: the lack of a (obvious-to-the-user) uniform structure of the
> input files. Since lilypond is defined by a grammar, it must of course
> have a clearly defined structure, but where is it documented?
>
> | > Part of an answer to your question can be found in the
> | > sections "Changing context default settings"
> |
> | but this should be in file structure and in a section
> | called layout.
>
> Exactly! The template section is a good start, but the problem is that
> is doesn't explain *why* the different templates are written the way
> they are. There should definitely be a section explaining and giving
> examples of the different parts of a lilypond source file!

%{The best way to proceed IMO is to comment the templates much more
and then to grow the section from that.  Some of the examples in the
docs could use more commenting too, especially labeling to show what
in the text is referring to what in the example.%} daveA

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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl
Well this seems to imply: "forget being able to build
a lilypond file from scratch, you must start from a
template or all is lost."

Infact for the majority of my Lilypond experience I
relied on templates for creating scores.

What this did was limit my ability to make a score do
exactly what I wanted.

So in the 2.4 series lilypond I was eventually able to
create my own template. Still I was never exactly sure
why it worked and others I tried didn't...

An abstraction layer would be nice with a clearly
defined structure and it would also be nice to be able
to seperate content from formatting....

Although I don't care so much how Lilypond is
structured so long as I understand it and can
reproduce it, which I currently can't do consistantly.

I also haven't seen templates without the x=y
structure
although I think I am close to getting it working in
the development version.

Aaron

>
> %{The best way to proceed IMO is to comment the
> templates much more
> and then to grow the section from that.  Some of the
> examples in the
> docs could use more commenting too, especially
> labeling to show what
> in the text is referring to what in the example.%}
> daveA
>
> --
> The only technical exercises for all guitarists
> worth a lifetime
> of practice: "Dynamic Guitar Technique".  Nothing
> else is close.
> Free download:
> http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html   
> daveA         David Raleigh Arnold        
> dra..at..openguitar.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>



               
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Re: lay out

Graham Percival

On 4-Jun-05, at 12:47 PM, Aaron Mehl wrote:
> So in the 2.4 series lilypond I was eventually able to
> create my own template. Still I was never exactly sure
> why it worked and others I tried didn't...

Why can't you use your 2.4 scores in 2.5?  You might need
to update them with convert-ly, but the basic ideas are the
same.

I think we really need an example of what you're trying to do.  I don't
understand what the difficulty is.  Please send an example.

- Graham



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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl
Hi Graham and list,

I did as you said and did a convert-ly on the file.

it basically replaced paper with layout and removed
the notes block but I see a second set of brackets.
--------------------------------------------------
\version "2.2.0"

\header{
        title = "Zachrenu"
        poet = "Machzor Yom Kippur"
        composer = "Yechiel Halpern"
        meter = "Andante"

}

#(set-global-staff-size 18)
\score {
\notes {
        \set Staff.midiInstrument = "acoustic grand"
        \time 4/4
        \key a \minor
        \clef treble
        e'4 e''8 c'' b' a' b' c'' |
        a'4 a' a' a' |
        gis'8 a' b' c'' b' gis' a' f' |
        e'4 gis'8. gis'16 gis'4 gis'8. e'16 |
%5
        a'8 gis' a' f' e' d' f' a' |
        d'4 d' d' d'8. d''16 |
        d'' c'' b' a' b' a' gis' f' gis' f' e' d' gis'
a' gis' f' |
        e'2. r8 e'16 e' |
        a'8. gis'16 a'8 b' c''8. b'16 c''8 a' |
%10
        b'4 b' b' b'8 e' |
        b'8. ais'16 b'8 c'' d''8. c''16 d''8 b' |
        c''4 c'' c'' c'' |
        f''8. e''16 d''8 c'' b'16 c'' b' c'' d''4 |
        e''8. d''16 c''8 b' a'16 b' a' b' c''4 |
%15
        d''8. c''16 b'8 a' gis' e' c'' b' |
        a'2 \bar "|."
}




        \paper {
        }
        \midi {
                \tempo 4 = 72
        }
}

-------------------------------------------------
\version "2.5.12"

\header{
        title = "Zachrenu"
        poet = "Machzor Yom Kippur"
        composer = "Yechiel Halpern"
        meter = "Andante"

}

#(set-global-staff-size 18)
\score {
 {
        \set Staff.midiInstrument = "acoustic grand"
        \time 4/4
        \key a \minor
        \clef treble
        e'4 e''8 c'' b' a' b' c'' |
        a'4 a' a' a' |
        gis'8 a' b' c'' b' gis' a' f' |
        e'4 gis'8. gis'16 gis'4 gis'8. e'16 |
%5
        a'8 gis' a' f' e' d' f' a' |
        d'4 d' d' d'8. d''16 |
        d'' c'' b' a' b' a' gis' f' gis' f' e' d' gis'
a' gis' f' |
        e'2. r8 e'16 e' |
        a'8. gis'16 a'8 b' c''8. b'16 c''8 a' |
%10
        b'4 b' b' b'8 e' |
        b'8. ais'16 b'8 c'' d''8. c''16 d''8 b' |
        c''4 c'' c'' c'' |
        f''8. e''16 d''8 c'' b'16 c'' b' c'' d''4 |
        e''8. d''16 c''8 b' a'16 b' a' b' c''4 |
%15
        d''8. c''16 b'8 a' gis' e' c'' b' |
        a'2 \bar "|."
}




        \layout {
        }
        \midi {
                \tempo 4 = 72
        }
}

-----------------------------------------
So am I able to generalize from this that layout
replaces paper (you said not and the docs still say
that paper is still in?)

Also is the second set of brackets under the score
block just a shortcut for \note {}?

I need to acheive a template with lyrics in it where
in this template would I put lyrics?

Again it is nice to get a working template for my
personal project but even nicer would be to have some
structural rules I can share with others.

What I mean is that a lilypond file must have these
blocks and optionally can have these blocks.

It could be that nothing really has changed in the
versions and I just never bothered to pin down what is
the basic structure before.

But infact one of the stumbling blocks with lilyxml
was defining what was the lilypond structure. And I
see that it is very different than xml so this
discussion is most enlightening for me.

Aaron



               
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Re: lay out

Graham Percival

On 4-Jun-05, at 4:31 PM, Aaron Mehl wrote:

> So am I able to generalize from this that layout
> replaces paper (you said not and the docs still say
> that paper is still in?)

There is currently a \paper{} and \layout{}.  I really don't
want to talk about anything that happened before 2.4, because
I really don't know what the relationship is.

I'm looking into what \paper{} and \layout{} do.  Stay tuned.

> Also is the second set of brackets under the score
> block just a shortcut for \note {}?

There's no \note{} anymore.  {} is like the old \note{}, and
\relative c' { } is like the old \note{\relative c'{ }}.

> I need to acheive a template with lyrics in it where
> in this template would I put lyrics?

I don't know.  I don't write music with lyrics.  Let's look at the
docs... Instrument-specific notation -> Vocal music.
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.5/Documentation/user/out-www/lilypond/ 
Setting-simple-songs.html

Hmm, it says that for simple stuff, just add \addlyrics under the notes.
Let's see if that works.  Hey, it does!

insert

\addlyrics{
type lyrics here
}

into your example, right after your notes.  Here's some context:
------
%15
         d''8. c''16 b'8 a' gis' e' c'' b' |
         a'2 \bar "|."
}
\addlyrics{
type lyrics here
}



         \layout {
         }
-----


PLEASE, please read the docs!  We've spent hours and hours writing
and editing the docs.  This question required ten seconds of reading
the first section about vocal music!  How could we make this easier to
find?

- Graham



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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl
 
> I don't know.  I don't write music with lyrics.
> Let's look at the
> docs... Instrument-specific notation -> Vocal music.
Why  not look a lyrics which is what I did and I got
the following: And I couldn't figure out where to put
it because I go an x =y situation again. Remember you
know where to look in the docs and a newbie doesn't.
I also remember reading that  \lyricsto is needed to
line up lyrics to the text, but I gather the
\addlyrics is good enough...

Sorry I got confused but I did read the docs.
Thanks
Aaron

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.5/Documentation/user/out-www/lilypond/Single-staff.html#Single-staff
The next example demonstrates a simple melody with
lyrics. Cut and paste, add notes, then words for the
lyrics. This example turns off automatic beaming,
which is common for vocal parts. If you want to use
automatic beaming, you'll have to change or comment
out the relevant line.

     \version "2.4.0"
     melody = \relative c' {
        \clef treble
        \key c \major
        \time 4/4
     
        a4 b c d
     }
     
     text = \lyricmode {
        Aaa Bee Cee Dee
     }
     
     \score{
        <<
           \context Voice = one {
              \autoBeamOff
              \melody
           }
           \lyricsto "one" \new Lyrics \text
        >>
        \layout { }
        \midi { \tempo 4=60 }
     }

> Setting-simple-songs.html
>
> Hmm, it says that for simple stuff, just add
> \addlyrics under the notes.
> Let's see if that works.  Hey, it does!
>
> insert
>
> \addlyrics{
> type lyrics here
> }
>
> into your example, right after your notes.  Here's
> some context:
> ------
> %15
>          d''8. c''16 b'8 a' gis' e' c'' b' |
>          a'2 \bar "|."
> }
> \addlyrics{
> type lyrics here
> }
>
>
>
>          \layout {
>          }
> -----
>
>
> PLEASE, please read the docs!  We've spent hours and
> hours writing
> and editing the docs.  This question required ten
> seconds of reading
> the first section about vocal music!  How could we
> make this easier to
> find?
>
> - Graham
>
>



               
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Re: lay out

Mats Bengtsson-2
In reply to this post by Graham Percival
On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Graham Percival wrote:

>
> On 4-Jun-05, at 4:31 PM, Aaron Mehl wrote:
>
> > So am I able to generalize from this that layout
> > replaces paper (you said not and the docs still say
> > that paper is still in?)
>
> There is currently a \paper{} and \layout{}.  I really don't
> want to talk about anything that happened before 2.4, because
> I really don't know what the relationship is.

See http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2005-04/msg00147.html 
with follow-ups for some input.

   /Mats



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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl
Ok I am now getting both unconfused and confused.


But both paper and layout deal with layout.

I see that structure  in lilypond is not a
documentation structure. ie a programmers structure.


If I were to build a document I would have formatting
for the page or the entire document and formatting for
the section.

My  confusion is that lilypond leave the creation of
sections etc to the user in a way.

The logic is not one of nesting I gather but how
things are processed, as in python where each part is
processed going down the page and inner brackets are
done in a certain order.

I could then have I gather

layout anywhere in a document.
I would hate to hazard a guess that paper could also
appear anywhere?

What happens is that the terms become unclear and the
usage blurry.

I would love to see lilypond seperate presentation
from content, the truth is with includes it is
possible now, I guess.

That said

\layout {}
\score {
\layout {}
\score{
\layout {}

}

}
would format each subscore.
Now for different movements of one piece would I use
multple \score blocks or are there real structural
block in lilypond?

Pesonally I find the structure and usage of \paper and
\layout a but confusing but now that I look at it from

a programmers perspective I at least understand the
logic.

however some rules such an not allowing \score
{\paper{}


\score {
\paper {}
}}

would help to unconfuse, unless it already works that
way.
I will experiment and get back to the list soon.

Aaron
--- Mats Bengtsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Graham Percival wrote:
>
> >
> > On 4-Jun-05, at 4:31 PM, Aaron Mehl wrote:
> >
> > > So am I able to generalize from this that layout
> > > replaces paper (you said not and the docs still
> say
> > > that paper is still in?)
> >
> > There is currently a \paper{} and \layout{}.  I
> really don't
> > want to talk about anything that happened before
> 2.4, because
> > I really don't know what the relationship is.
>
> See
>
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2005-04/msg00147.html
>
> with follow-ups for some input.
>
>    /Mats
>
>


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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl
In reply to this post by Mats Bengtsson-2
Well,

I did some testing and lilypond doesn't like nesting
but it produces output in some instances.

What I get from this and the more pictures thread is
that some rules and I mean rules would help the
beginner.

ie this is how you build a vocal score, a piano score
etc.

would ease the entry to beginners. When all is said
and done it is still not trivial to create a score
from scratch.

What about an abstraction level where lilypond
--level-beginner would read a new type of structed
lilypond for beginners where only a fixed structure is
allowed.

\version
\layout
\header
\score
\midi

and make the structure  as clear and easy as possible.


then there could be abstraction levels for
intermediate which will allow more freedom etc.

------------------------------

If a structural wish list was allowed however here is
what I would want.

1. A real separation of content and formatting.

 

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Re: lay out

Aaron Mehl

continued from preious email that yahoo sent
accidently before I finished :(


> If a structural wish list was allowed however here
> is
> what I would want.
>
> 1. A real separation of content and formatting.
       This means that a lilypond file would have no
formatting in it at all. A seperate style sheet would
be the place for this. The advantage is that if you
have style tweaks for multiple docs only one file is
needed to apply these tweaks to all files. This might
require the addition of attributes to permit lower
level styles in and external file...

2. A fixed and clearly defined structure which takes
into account the possible structural pieces that
different scores can contain.

\piece
\movement
\phrase
\motiv
\chorus
etc.

This I know is a fundamental change in the structure
of  lilypond and possibly(probably) hard to impose on
the already existing structure.

Truthfully \score etc doesn't say much about the
structure of a composition but are rather containers
for data types to be parsed.

This thread was started to understand and I hope
document the file structure.

I would like to see actually a diagram of how and in
what order each block ("container of data") is parsed
in lilypond as well as what block is processed first
second etc.

Aaron
(

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Re: lay out

Mats Bengtsson-6
In reply to this post by Mats Bengtsson-2
Also, to get a nice overview of the changes from version 2.2 to 2.4,
please read the NEWS file for version 2.4:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.4/Documentation/topdocs/out-www/NEWS.html
Also, it may be worth to look at the printouts from
convert-ly -s

   /Mats

Mats Bengtsson wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Graham Percival wrote:
>
>
>>On 4-Jun-05, at 4:31 PM, Aaron Mehl wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So am I able to generalize from this that layout
>>>replaces paper (you said not and the docs still say
>>>that paper is still in?)
>>
>>There is currently a \paper{} and \layout{}.  I really don't
>>want to talk about anything that happened before 2.4, because
>>I really don't know what the relationship is.
>
>
> See http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2005-04/msg00147.html 
> with follow-ups for some input.
>
>    /Mats
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
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=============================================


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Re: lay out

Graham Percival
In reply to this post by Aaron Mehl

On 6-Jun-05, at 11:08 PM, Aaron Mehl wrote:
>> 1. A real separation of content and formatting.
>        This means that a lilypond file would have no
> formatting in it at all. A seperate style sheet would
> be the place for this. The advantage is that if you
> have style tweaks for multiple docs only one file is
> needed to apply these tweaks to all files.

This is already possible and in use.  See the Mutopia examples.

- Graham



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Re: lay out

Mats Bengtsson-6
In reply to this post by Aaron Mehl


Aaron Mehl wrote:

> continued from preious email that yahoo sent
> accidently before I finished :(
>
>
>
>>If a structural wish list was allowed however here
>>is
>>what I would want.
>>
>>1. A real separation of content and formatting.
>
>        This means that a lilypond file would have no
> formatting in it at all. A seperate style sheet would
> be the place for this. The advantage is that if you
> have style tweaks for multiple docs only one file is
> needed to apply these tweaks to all files. This might
> require the addition of attributes to permit lower
> level styles in and external file...

I would claim that this idea clearly has influenced the design
of LilyPond from the first version. You can set parameters to
determine the layout in the \layout{...} block.
However, there will always be special cases where the automatic
layout decisions taken by the program will not be good enough,
so therefore we can never get rid of the need to tweak certain
parameters at a specific place in the score. This means that
it will be impossible to get a 100% separation of content and
layout.

>
> 2. A fixed and clearly defined structure which takes
> into account the possible structural pieces that
> different scores can contain.
>
> \piece
> \movement
> \phrase
> \motiv
> \chorus
> etc.
>
> This I know is a fundamental change in the structure
> of  lilypond and possibly(probably) hard to impose on
> the already existing structure.

The support for titling in LilyPond has always been a bit
primitive, just providing a basic support to add titles to
a piece. So, the structural elements you propose are really
out of scope in todays LilyPond. Up til version 2.2, the titling
layout was really hard coded and it was very seldom that you
could have more than a single \score{...} in a .ly file and
get a useful output. However, from version 2.4 you can
actually redefine how the titling is done, so there are much
better possibilities to actually typeset a full piece with
several movements in a single .ly file. Still, going from that
to what you have in mind is a very long step and I'm not convinced
that it should be top priority. For me it's much more important
that the typesetting withing each movement is top quality.



> Truthfully \score etc doesn't say much about the
> structure of a composition but are rather containers
> for data types to be parsed.

Think of it as one movement of a piece.

> This thread was started to understand and I hope
> document the file structure.
>
> I would like to see actually a diagram of how and in
> what order each block ("container of data") is parsed
> in lilypond as well as what block is processed first
> second etc.

Parsing is from top to bottom, replacing macro definitions
along the way, so nothing fancy is going on here.

     /Mats


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