Re: Tremolo positioning

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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joe Neeman
It seems this issue doesn't bother anyone else? In any case, now that 2.8 is
out there, I thought I'd start pushing this point again. I attach a patch
that gives the behaviour that I think is correct. I also attach 2 examples of
the differences between the existing and the proposed behaviours.

Joe

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:01, Joe Neeman wrote:

> I've finally put my finger on what was bothering me about lilypond
> tremolos -- they are too close to the noteheads.
>
> I think that the tremolo marks shouldn't depend on where the notehead
> is, but rather on the position of the end of the stem. Also, the stem
> should be made longer to accomodate the tremolo. For example, if I have
> doubled eighth notes, the stems should be as long as if they were 16th
> notes and the tremolo markings should go where the second beams would be
> if they were 16th notes.
>
> I attach 2 scanned examples, a Schirmer edition of Franck's sonata for
> violin and piano and a B&H edition of Bartok's solo violin sonata. I
> also attach lilypond versions of the snippets, just for comparison.
>
> I also have an example (no scan of this) where lilypond makes the stems
> so short that the tremolo and the notehead overlap. (Sorry for all the
> images. I've tried to keep them small.)
>
> Joe

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franck_after.jpeg (5K) Download Attachment
tchaik_after.jpeg (9K) Download Attachment
franck_before.jpeg (5K) Download Attachment
tchaik_before.jpeg (5K) Download Attachment
tremolo_20060326.patch (4K) Download Attachment
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Re: Tremolo positioning

Werner LEMBERG

> It seems this issue doesn't bother anyone else? In any case, now
> that 2.8 is out there, I thought I'd start pushing this point again.
> I attach a patch that gives the behaviour that I think is correct.
> I also attach 2 examples of the differences between the existing and
> the proposed behaviours.

Hmm, the Tchaikovsky solution is still incorrect -- some stems are too
short, causing a collision with the note heads...  It's a different
bug, but it would be nice if it could be solved at the same time.


    Werner


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joe Neeman
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 03:43, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
> > It seems this issue doesn't bother anyone else? In any case, now
> > that 2.8 is out there, I thought I'd start pushing this point again.
> > I attach a patch that gives the behaviour that I think is correct.
> > I also attach 2 examples of the differences between the existing and
> > the proposed behaviours.
>
> Hmm, the Tchaikovsky solution is still incorrect -- some stems are too
> short, causing a collision with the note heads...  It's a different
> bug, but it would be nice if it could be solved at the same time.
I've tweaked it by adding a little more to the minimum length of the stem. The
Franck output is unchanged, I've attached the new Tchaikovsky output.

Oh, and I remembered a ChangeLog entry this time :)
>
>
>     Werner
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joshua Parmenter
Shouldn't all tremolo lines be at the same angle (usually about 30  
degrees)?

Sorry, I am new to the list, and am not sure where this thread  
started. But in standard notation, this is not what usual tremolo  
markings look like.

Josh

On Mar 28, 2006, at 9:48 AM, Joe Neeman wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 03:43, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
>>> It seems this issue doesn't bother anyone else? In any case, now
>>> that 2.8 is out there, I thought I'd start pushing this point again.
>>> I attach a patch that gives the behaviour that I think is correct.
>>> I also attach 2 examples of the differences between the existing and
>>> the proposed behaviours.
>>
>> Hmm, the Tchaikovsky solution is still incorrect -- some stems are  
>> too
>> short, causing a collision with the note heads...  It's a different
>> bug, but it would be nice if it could be solved at the same time.
> I've tweaked it by adding a little more to the minimum length of  
> the stem. The
> Franck output is unchanged, I've attached the new Tchaikovsky output.
>
> Oh, and I remembered a ChangeLog entry this time :)
>>
>>
>>     Werner
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lilypond-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
>> <tremolo_20060328.patch>
>> <tchaik_try2.jpeg>
> _______________________________________________
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******************************************
Joshua Parmenter
[hidden email]
Post-Doctoral Research Associate - Center for Digital Arts and  
Experimental Media
Raitt Hall - University of Washington
Seattle, Washington 98195

http://www.dxarts.washington.edu
http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/




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Re: Tremolo positioning

Werner LEMBERG
In reply to this post by Joe Neeman
> I've tweaked it by adding a little more to the minimum length of the
> stem. The Franck output is unchanged, I've attached the new
> Tchaikovsky output.

Very nice!

> Oh, and I remembered a ChangeLog entry this time :)

Please add it just to the mail and don't include it into the diff
directly.


    Werner


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Werner LEMBERG
In reply to this post by Joshua Parmenter

> Shouldn't all tremolo lines be at the same angle (usually about 30  
> degrees)?

AFAIK, this isn't true in the presence of beams.  Can you provide a
counterexample (this is, a small scanned image)?  In that case we have
to make it configurable.


    Werner


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joe Neeman
In reply to this post by Joshua Parmenter
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:01, Joshua Parmenter wrote:
> Shouldn't all tremolo lines be at the same angle (usually about 30
> degrees)?
>
> Sorry, I am new to the list, and am not sure where this thread
> started. But in standard notation, this is not what usual tremolo
> markings look like.
I started the thread on lilypond-user on 27/2 -- you can look in the archives
--  with some scanned examples of tremolos but I moved it to this list when I
made the patch. I believe that tremolos on beamed notes are always parallel
to the beam. In fact, one of my examples (Cesar Franck sonata, Schirmer
edition) has some horizontal tremolos. (In contrast, unbeamed tremolos are
always the same slope).

I agree that unsloped tremolos look a little strange, but sloped tremolos on
unsloped beams look at least as bad.

Looking at some of my first examples again, it seems that beams over tremolo
stems have a tendency to be more sloped than beams over non-tremolo stems.
This will increase the tendency of tremolos to be sloped. I'll look for some
more examples.

In the meantime, though, I think this patch improves the positioning of
tremolos significantly.

Joe


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Han-Wen Nienhuys-2
In reply to this post by Joe Neeman
Joe Neeman wrote:

>> +  Real height_of_my_trem = 0.0;
>> +  Grob *trem = unsmob_grob (me->get_object ("tremolo-flag"));
>> +  if (trem)
>> +      height_of_my_trem = ly_scm2interval (trem->get_property ("Y-extent")).length ()
>> +        /* hack a bit of space around the trem. */
>> +        + beam_translation - beam_thickness;

the proper procedure is to call Grob::extent(refp, Y_AXIS) instead.

>>    Stencil a (Lookup::beam (slope, width, thick, blot));
>> -  a.translate (Offset (-width * 0.5, width * 0.5 * slope));
>> +  Interval a_ext = a.extent (Y_AXIS);
>> +  a.translate (Offset (-width * 0.5, a_ext.length () / 2 - a_ext[UP]));

I think you want Stencil::align_to (CENTER, Y_AXIS)
>> -      mol.align_to (Y_AXIS, -stemdir);
>> -      mol.translate_axis (chord_start_y + 0.5 * stemdir, Y_AXIS);
>> +      Real down_off = mol_ext.length () / 2 + mol_ext[DOWN];
>> +      mol.translate_axis (-down_off * 2, Y_AXIS);
>>      }

idem.

Can you resend the patch using more idiomatic code? Thanks!

--

Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

LilyPond Software Design
  -- Code for Music Notation
http://www.lilypond-design.com



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Re: Tremolo positioning

Han-Wen Nienhuys-2
Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:

>
> Can you resend the patch using more idiomatic code? Thanks!

Also, can you include a small regression test sample, so it's obvious
when we break something?

--

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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joshua Parmenter
In reply to this post by Werner LEMBERG
This is described in Matt Stone's book "Music Notation in the 20th  
Century" (not just 20th century music notation, but the practices of  
notation in the 20th century):

"The tremolo bars should be thinner than beams, and as long or a  
little longer than the width of a note-head
On beamed notes, the tremolo bars usually slant sightly more than the  
beams
Note that the tremolo bars always slant upward, regardless of beam-
slant"

Mostly, you want to avoid them looking like beams that didn't print  
correctly... so, avoiding tremolos parallel to the beams is of  
importance. When the beams are at the same angle that the tremolos  
would be, then the tremolos are adjusted slightly to avoid this.

I can scan the page tonight if that would help.

Best,

Josh

On Mar 27, 2006, at 11:20 PM, Werner LEMBERG wrote:

>
>> Shouldn't all tremolo lines be at the same angle (usually about 30
>> degrees)?
>
> AFAIK, this isn't true in the presence of beams.  Can you provide a
> counterexample (this is, a small scanned image)?  In that case we have
> to make it configurable.
>
>
>     Werner

******************************************
Joshua Parmenter
[hidden email]
Post-Doctoral Research Associate - Center for Digital Arts and  
Experimental Media
Raitt Hall - University of Washington
Seattle, Washington 98195

http://www.dxarts.washington.edu
http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/




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Re: Tremolo positioning

Werner LEMBERG

> "The tremolo bars should be thinner than beams,

Urgh.  Never seen that in normal scores from German publishers.

> On beamed notes, the tremolo bars usually slant sightly more than
> the beams Note that the tremolo bars always slant upward, regardless
> of beam- slant"

Hmmm.

> Mostly, you want to avoid them looking like beams that didn't print
> correctly... so, avoiding tremolos parallel to the beams is of
> importance.

I really would like to see a situation where I can misinterpret a
tremolo under a beam...

> I can scan the page tonight if that would help.

In case there is a music example, please do so.  But this is just a
theoretical book, I assume.  Can you provide a real-world example
also?


    Werner


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Jan Nieuwenhuizen
Werner LEMBERG writes:

>> "The tremolo bars should be thinner than beams,
>
> Urgh.  Never seen that in normal scores from German publishers.

I think that I have seen thicker than beams, in some publications.

>> On beamed notes, the tremolo bars usually slant sightly more than
>> the beams Note that the tremolo bars always slant upward, regardless
>> of beam- slant"
>
> Hmmm.

Here also are different styles, but I guess that using the beam slant
looks best.

Jan.

--
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http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien       | http://www.lilypond.org


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joe Neeman
In reply to this post by Joshua Parmenter
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:39, Joshua Parmenter wrote:

> This is described in Matt Stone's book "Music Notation in the 20th
> Century" (not just 20th century music notation, but the practices of
> notation in the 20th century):
>
> "The tremolo bars should be thinner than beams, and as long or a
> little longer than the width of a note-head
> On beamed notes, the tremolo bars usually slant sightly more than the
> beams
> Note that the tremolo bars always slant upward, regardless of beam-
> slant"
>
> Mostly, you want to avoid them looking like beams that didn't print
> correctly... so, avoiding tremolos parallel to the beams is of
> importance. When the beams are at the same angle that the tremolos
> would be, then the tremolos are adjusted slightly to avoid this.
>
> I can scan the page tonight if that would help.
I think it would be most helpful if you could find a printed example of music
that shows this -- regardless of what Matt Stone says, I don't think I have
ever seen a tremolo slanted in the opposite direction of a beam. He must cite
some references -- maybe you can find an example there.

One of my previous examples was the Bartok solo violin sonata (which couldn't
have been typeset before 1947) and it has downward slanting tremolos on
downward slanting beams (parallel to the beam). I just picked up a Kalmus
edition of Ravel Introduction and Allegro (Violin 2), typeset at the
beginning of the 20th century, and it also has tremolos parallel to beams
even when beams slant downward.

Slightly unrelated, but now that you have me peering closely at tremolo
flags... all the examples I have on hand have rectangular tremolo flags on
beamed notes and parallelogram tremolo flags (what we do now) on unbeamed
notes. Also the flags on beamed notes are much shorter than on unbeamed notes
(about 60-70% the width).

Joe


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joshua Parmenter
I'll do this tonight (when I'm home with my scanner).

Looking over some older scores, I definitely see examples like the  
one sent earlier... but over 10 years of typesetting, most current  
style sheets (if memory serves me correctly) specify slanted  
tremolos. I'll actually see if I can dig up the Durand style sheet  
(the one I've seen most recently) and see if ti specifies.

Best,

Josh

On Mar 29, 2006, at 12:20 AM, Joe Neeman wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:39, Joshua Parmenter wrote:
>> This is described in Matt Stone's book "Music Notation in the 20th
>> Century" (not just 20th century music notation, but the practices of
>> notation in the 20th century):
>>
>> "The tremolo bars should be thinner than beams, and as long or a
>> little longer than the width of a note-head
>> On beamed notes, the tremolo bars usually slant sightly more than the
>> beams
>> Note that the tremolo bars always slant upward, regardless of beam-
>> slant"
>>
>> Mostly, you want to avoid them looking like beams that didn't print
>> correctly... so, avoiding tremolos parallel to the beams is of
>> importance. When the beams are at the same angle that the tremolos
>> would be, then the tremolos are adjusted slightly to avoid this.
>>
>> I can scan the page tonight if that would help.
> I think it would be most helpful if you could find a printed  
> example of music
> that shows this -- regardless of what Matt Stone says, I don't  
> think I have
> ever seen a tremolo slanted in the opposite direction of a beam. He  
> must cite
> some references -- maybe you can find an example there.
>
> One of my previous examples was the Bartok solo violin sonata  
> (which couldn't
> have been typeset before 1947) and it has downward slanting  
> tremolos on
> downward slanting beams (parallel to the beam). I just picked up a  
> Kalmus
> edition of Ravel Introduction and Allegro (Violin 2), typeset at the
> beginning of the 20th century, and it also has tremolos parallel to  
> beams
> even when beams slant downward.
>
> Slightly unrelated, but now that you have me peering closely at  
> tremolo
> flags... all the examples I have on hand have rectangular tremolo  
> flags on
> beamed notes and parallelogram tremolo flags (what we do now) on  
> unbeamed
> notes. Also the flags on beamed notes are much shorter than on  
> unbeamed notes
> (about 60-70% the width).
>
> Joe

******************************************
Joshua Parmenter
[hidden email]
Post-Doctoral Research Associate - Center for Digital Arts and  
Experimental Media
Raitt Hall - University of Washington
Seattle, Washington 98195

http://www.dxarts.washington.edu
http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/




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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joe Neeman
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:26, Joshua Parmenter wrote:
> I'll do this tonight (when I'm home with my scanner).
>
> Looking over some older scores, I definitely see examples like the
> one sent earlier... but over 10 years of typesetting, most current
> style sheets (if memory serves me correctly) specify slanted
> tremolos. I'll actually see if I can dig up the Durand style sheet
> (the one I've seen most recently) and see if ti specifies.

While you're looking this up, could you also check the behaviour of tremolo
flags on notes with flags (eg. unbeamed 8th notes)? I only have one example
of this on hand and the behaviour is

Tremolos on stem-up notes with flags are shortened and rectangular (same as
beamed flags).

Tremolos on stem-down notes with flags are the normal length, but more sloped
than normal to help them avoid the flag.

This behaviour seems to make sense, but I only have one example so it would be
nice to have either confirmation or a counter-example/alternate behaviour.

Cheers,
Joe


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Han-Wen Nienhuys-2
In reply to this post by Joshua Parmenter
Joshua Parmenter wrote:
> I'll do this tonight (when I'm home with my scanner).
>
> Looking over some older scores, I definitely see examples like the one
> sent earlier... but over 10 years of typesetting, most current style
> sheets (if memory serves me correctly) specify slanted tremolos. I'll
> actually see if I can dig up the Durand style sheet (the one I've seen
> most recently) and see if ti specifies.

I would be most interested in a xerox/scan of this document.

Schirmer's style guide shows slanted tremolo beams on horizontal beams,
but I admit that it looks rather disconcerting. Let's do what the
classics do, and ignore modern style sheets.


--

Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

LilyPond Software Design
  -- Code for Music Notation
http://www.lilypond-design.com



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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joshua Parmenter
Ignoring modern style sheets means not being able to type-set for  
those companies. Which also means using Finale or Sibelius.

Or, perhaps this can be configurable. Maybe a stylesheet could be  
loaded?

And I apologize for not introducing myself and my situation. I was  
directed here from a MANTIS thread with Denemo. Basically, I'm a  
composer that does quite a bit of open-source development (mostly  
with SuperCollider). I've been using Finale forever, and am tired of  
paying for upgrade after upgrade. Also, since I have acquired some  
coding skills, and have just finished graduate school, I am looking for:

a) an alternative
b) a project I can expand personally to meet my needs (in my own  
copy... if need be)
c) possibly a project that wants so assistance with development.

I spent a good 5 years learning how to make Finale do what I wanted.  
I'm ready to invest time like that again if that kind of assistance  
is wanted. So, that's where I am coming from. Most of my notational  
needs are with extended 20th century technique... something no  
typesetting program does well... the ability for lilipond to use TeX  
obviously opens up many possibilities... I find this exciting.

Look forward to learning the program, and, if it is wanted, possibly  
helping with development.

Best,

Josh

On Mar 28, 2006, at 3:31 PM, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:

> Joshua Parmenter wrote:
>> I'll do this tonight (when I'm home with my scanner).
>> Looking over some older scores, I definitely see examples like the  
>> one sent earlier... but over 10 years of typesetting, most current  
>> style sheets (if memory serves me correctly) specify slanted  
>> tremolos. I'll actually see if I can dig up the Durand style sheet  
>> (the one I've seen most recently) and see if ti specifies.
>
> I would be most interested in a xerox/scan of this document.
>
> Schirmer's style guide shows slanted tremolo beams on horizontal  
> beams, but I admit that it looks rather disconcerting. Let's do  
> what the classics do, and ignore modern style sheets.
>
>
> --
>
> Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen
>
> LilyPond Software Design
>  -- Code for Music Notation
> http://www.lilypond-design.com
>

******************************************
Joshua Parmenter
[hidden email]
Post-Doctoral Research Associate - Center for Digital Arts and  
Experimental Media
Raitt Hall - University of Washington
Seattle, Washington 98195

http://www.dxarts.washington.edu
http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/




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Re: Tremolo positioning

Han-Wen Nienhuys-2
Joshua Parmenter wrote:
> Ignoring modern style sheets means not being able to type-set for those
> companies. Which also means using Finale or Sibelius.
>
> Or, perhaps this can be configurable. Maybe a stylesheet could be loaded?

Yes, of course. I was thinking of the correct default.

> And I apologize for not introducing myself and my situation. I was
> directed here from a MANTIS thread with Denemo. Basically, I'm a
> composer that does quite a bit of open-source development (mostly with
> SuperCollider). I've been using Finale forever, and am tired of paying
> for upgrade after upgrade. Also, since I have acquired some coding
> skills, and have just finished graduate school, I am looking for:
>
> a) an alternative
> b) a project I can expand personally to meet my needs (in my own copy...
> if need be)
> c) possibly a project that wants so assistance with development.
>
> I spent a good 5 years learning how to make Finale do what I wanted. I'm
> ready to invest time like that again if that kind of assistance is
> wanted. So, that's where I am coming from. Most of my notational needs
> are with extended 20th century technique... something no typesetting
> program does well... the ability for lilipond to use TeX obviously opens
> up many possibilities... I find this exciting.

Welcome!  I look forward to getting patches.

Cheers,

--

Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

LilyPond Software Design
  -- Code for Music Notation
http://www.lilypond-design.com



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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joe Neeman
In reply to this post by Joshua Parmenter
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 23:41, Joshua Parmenter wrote:
> Ignoring modern style sheets means not being able to type-set for
> those companies. Which also means using Finale or Sibelius.
>
> Or, perhaps this can be configurable. Maybe a stylesheet could be
> loaded?
If you're new here, you may not realise that almost everything in lilypond is
configurable. As things stand, you can do
\override StemTremolo #'beam-slope = #0.3
at the beginning of your score and all tremolos will be sloped at 30 degrees.
They can also be overridden individually. (And the same applies to tremolo
width).

So what we are discussing here is only the default behaviour. And I tend to
agree with Han-Wen that the default should be to follow classical behaviour.

Cheers,
Joe

>
> And I apologize for not introducing myself and my situation. I was
> directed here from a MANTIS thread with Denemo. Basically, I'm a
> composer that does quite a bit of open-source development (mostly
> with SuperCollider). I've been using Finale forever, and am tired of
> paying for upgrade after upgrade. Also, since I have acquired some
> coding skills, and have just finished graduate school, I am looking for:
>
> a) an alternative
> b) a project I can expand personally to meet my needs (in my own
> copy... if need be)
> c) possibly a project that wants so assistance with development.
>
> I spent a good 5 years learning how to make Finale do what I wanted.
> I'm ready to invest time like that again if that kind of assistance
> is wanted. So, that's where I am coming from. Most of my notational
> needs are with extended 20th century technique... something no
> typesetting program does well... the ability for lilipond to use TeX
> obviously opens up many possibilities... I find this exciting.
>
> Look forward to learning the program, and, if it is wanted, possibly
> helping with development.
>
> Best,
>
> Josh
>
> On Mar 28, 2006, at 3:31 PM, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> > Joshua Parmenter wrote:
> >> I'll do this tonight (when I'm home with my scanner).
> >> Looking over some older scores, I definitely see examples like the
> >> one sent earlier... but over 10 years of typesetting, most current
> >> style sheets (if memory serves me correctly) specify slanted
> >> tremolos. I'll actually see if I can dig up the Durand style sheet
> >> (the one I've seen most recently) and see if ti specifies.
> >
> > I would be most interested in a xerox/scan of this document.
> >
> > Schirmer's style guide shows slanted tremolo beams on horizontal
> > beams, but I admit that it looks rather disconcerting. Let's do
> > what the classics do, and ignore modern style sheets.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen
> >
> > LilyPond Software Design
> >  -- Code for Music Notation
> > http://www.lilypond-design.com
>
> ******************************************
> Joshua Parmenter
> [hidden email]
> Post-Doctoral Research Associate - Center for Digital Arts and
> Experimental Media
> Raitt Hall - University of Washington
> Seattle, Washington 98195
>
> http://www.dxarts.washington.edu
> http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/


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Re: Tremolo positioning

Joshua Parmenter

> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 23:41, Joshua Parmenter wrote:
>> Ignoring modern style sheets means not being able to type-set for
>> those companies. Which also means using Finale or Sibelius.
>>
>> Or, perhaps this can be configurable. Maybe a stylesheet could be
>> loaded?
> If you're new here, you may not realise that almost everything in  
> lilypond is
> configurable. As things stand, you can do
> \override StemTremolo #'beam-slope = #0.3
> at the beginning of your score and all tremolos will be sloped at  
> 30 degrees.
> They can also be overridden individually. (And the same applies to  
> tremolo
> width).

Of course... I have only started working through the tutorial... so  
perhaps I should just keep a little quiet until I know what is going on!

Thanks,

Josh

>
> So what we are discussing here is only the default behaviour. And I  
> tend to
> agree with Han-Wen that the default should be to follow classical  
> behaviour.
>
> Cheers,
> Joe
>
>>
>> And I apologize for not introducing myself and my situation. I was
>> directed here from a MANTIS thread with Denemo. Basically, I'm a
>> composer that does quite a bit of open-source development (mostly
>> with SuperCollider). I've been using Finale forever, and am tired of
>> paying for upgrade after upgrade. Also, since I have acquired some
>> coding skills, and have just finished graduate school, I am  
>> looking for:
>>
>> a) an alternative
>> b) a project I can expand personally to meet my needs (in my own
>> copy... if need be)
>> c) possibly a project that wants so assistance with development.
>>
>> I spent a good 5 years learning how to make Finale do what I wanted.
>> I'm ready to invest time like that again if that kind of assistance
>> is wanted. So, that's where I am coming from. Most of my notational
>> needs are with extended 20th century technique... something no
>> typesetting program does well... the ability for lilipond to use TeX
>> obviously opens up many possibilities... I find this exciting.
>>
>> Look forward to learning the program, and, if it is wanted, possibly
>> helping with development.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Josh
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2006, at 3:31 PM, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>>> Joshua Parmenter wrote:
>>>> I'll do this tonight (when I'm home with my scanner).
>>>> Looking over some older scores, I definitely see examples like the
>>>> one sent earlier... but over 10 years of typesetting, most current
>>>> style sheets (if memory serves me correctly) specify slanted
>>>> tremolos. I'll actually see if I can dig up the Durand style sheet
>>>> (the one I've seen most recently) and see if ti specifies.
>>>
>>> I would be most interested in a xerox/scan of this document.
>>>
>>> Schirmer's style guide shows slanted tremolo beams on horizontal
>>> beams, but I admit that it looks rather disconcerting. Let's do
>>> what the classics do, and ignore modern style sheets.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/ 
>>> ~hanwen
>>>
>>> LilyPond Software Design
>>>  -- Code for Music Notation
>>> http://www.lilypond-design.com
>>
>> ******************************************
>> Joshua Parmenter
>> [hidden email]
>> Post-Doctoral Research Associate - Center for Digital Arts and
>> Experimental Media
>> Raitt Hall - University of Washington
>> Seattle, Washington 98195
>>
>> http://www.dxarts.washington.edu
>> http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/

******************************************
Joshua Parmenter
[hidden email]
Post-Doctoral Research Associate - Center for Digital Arts and  
Experimental Media
Raitt Hall - University of Washington
Seattle, Washington 98195

http://www.dxarts.washington.edu
http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/




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