Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

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Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Lib Lists
Hello everybody,
a long-time user here, never been a power user though, but I'm back to
Lilypond after quite many years. I'm considering the possibility of
notating a future orchestral project using Lilypond. As I never used
it for anything bigger than chamber music, I'm learning how to
organise a big orchestral score by copying some existing examples
(which is a great excuse to finally analyse some interesting
orchestral passages).

I read the relevant sections in the documentation and some threads in
the user list, but still it's not clear to me what's the best strategy
to organise the material for the score and the parts, especially
regarding the strings. For example, in Stravinsky's Rite of Spring,
only in the first violins, there are up to 4 soloists, divisi (up to 4
parts), as well as separation by desk.

I'm considering approaching the task from the player's point of view,
i.e. by writing the music for each needed player / group of players.
For example, I'd start with the concertmaster's part, then duplicate
it and edit it to generate the music the second soloist, then the
other soloists, then desks, divisi and so on. Then with different
combining settings I'd add the first violins material to the score and
create the parts.

However, I know that \partcombine doesn't accept more than two voices,
so I guess I cannot (hypothetically) combine all the voices together
and let Lilypond sort out when the voices contain the same or
different materials and generate, when needed, additional voices or
staves.

The other option would be to create temporary staves when needed, but
I'm not sure which one is the best strategy.

Any suggestion and help would be really appreciated!

Cheers,

Lib

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Xavier Scheuer
On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 18:12, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> However, I know that \partcombine doesn't accept more than two voices,
> so I guess I cannot (hypothetically) combine all the voices together
> and let Lilypond sort out when the voices contain the same or
> different materials and generate, when needed, additional voices or
> staves.

Hello,

Great project !
I have used several times the technique mentioned on this list and documented only in the regression test ‘divisi-staves.ly’.
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.21/input/regression/collated-files.html#divisi-staves.ly
It is indeed necessary to indicate yourself the portions where staves can be combined, but it works very well (automatic filling of the rest of the line notably) and the rendering is very professional.

Otherwise I usually have one file per instrument for the notes (and one folder per movement) plus files for the conductor and each instrument part with common "defs.ily", "paper.ily", "header.ily", "layout.ily" files and possibly "instrument-breaks.ily" or "instrument-tweaks.ily" files towards the end for final adjustments.
I don't use a "global" variable and I enter the notes in relative mode but it's a matter of personal preferences.

Good luck with that,
Xavier

-- 
Xavier Scheuer <[hidden email]>

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Lib Lists
Hi,
thanks for your answer.
During the past days I've been looking at this same technique, the
only problem is that I cannot find a way to merge the different voices
into one, for example in the first system. In an ideal world, I'd like
to have the ability to tell Lilypond that a certain passage should be
merged into one voice, another passage should be kept with the voices
separated but in the same staff, and in other cases there would be the
need of extra staves (the last two achievable using the technique you
mentioned).

Thanks for the tips on organising the various files!

On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 19:38, Xavier Scheuer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 18:12, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > However, I know that \partcombine doesn't accept more than two voices,
> > so I guess I cannot (hypothetically) combine all the voices together
> > and let Lilypond sort out when the voices contain the same or
> > different materials and generate, when needed, additional voices or
> > staves.
>
> Hello,
>
> Great project !
> I have used several times the technique mentioned on this list and documented only in the regression test ‘divisi-staves.ly’.
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.21/input/regression/collated-files.html#divisi-staves.ly
> It is indeed necessary to indicate yourself the portions where staves can be combined, but it works very well (automatic filling of the rest of the line notably) and the rendering is very professional.
>
> Otherwise I usually have one file per instrument for the notes (and one folder per movement) plus files for the conductor and each instrument part with common "defs.ily", "paper.ily", "header.ily", "layout.ily" files and possibly "instrument-breaks.ily" or "instrument-tweaks.ily" files towards the end for final adjustments.
> I don't use a "global" variable and I enter the notes in relative mode but it's a matter of personal preferences.
>
> Good luck with that,
> Xavier
>
> --
> Xavier Scheuer <[hidden email]>
>

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Valentin Villenave-3
In reply to this post by Lib Lists
On 5/26/20, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For example, I'd start with the concertmaster's part, then duplicate
> it and edit it to generate the music the second soloist, then the
> other soloists, then desks, divisi and so on.

Greetings,
I wouldn’t recommend to “duplicate” any code. As Xavier said, you can
easily use multiple for files to enter variables containing music for
each instrument, then \include these files in a common file to
generate the full score or the set of individual parts. Even if there
are some differences needed, you can do pretty much anything with
different tags and then \keepWithTags or \removeWithTags as needed.

> The other option would be to create temporary staves when needed, but
> I'm not sure which one is the best strategy.

Generally speaking, Xavier’s trick is definitely what would be best
suited to that sort of situations. If you need advice on particular
cases, you’ll need to be more specific.

Cheers,
-- V.

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Valentin Villenave-3
In reply to this post by Xavier Scheuer
On 5/26/20, Xavier Scheuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have used several times the technique mentioned on this list and
> documented only in the regression test ‘divisi-staves.ly’.

It may indeed be more useful if added to the NR; I’ve just written a
patch with that mind:
https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/91

BTW Xavier, if you have a GitLab account and whish to gain access to
the tracker and patch reviewing tool, please let us know!

Cheers,
-- V.

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GitLab access

Aaron Hill
On 2020-05-26 4:13 pm, Valentin Villenave wrote:
> It may indeed be more useful if added to the NR; I’ve just written a
> patch with that mind:
> https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/91
>
> BTW Xavier, if you have a GitLab account and whish to gain access to
> the tracker and patch reviewing tool, please let us know!

Apologies for hijacking the thread.  The link you provided worked for me
without needing an account.  What level of access are you talking about?
  Is it something a mere mortal like me (i.e. someone who is not
currently a collaborator nor contributor) would need?


-- Aaron Hill

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Re: GitLab access

Valentin Villenave-3
On 5/27/20, Aaron Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Apologies for hijacking the thread.

No apology needed.

> The link you provided worked for me
> without needing an account.  What level of access are you talking about?
>   Is it something a mere mortal like me (i.e. someone who is not
> currently a collaborator nor contributor) would need?

Well, you most certainly *are* a contributor judging by the number of
helpful replies, nifty tricks and brilliant snippets you post each
week on the list :-)
The GitLab pages are publicly accessible (and I strongly hope they’ll
remain so); with a GitLab account I *think* there are a few things one
can do (post comments? open issues? unsure), but being referenced as a
project member gives you more access, to take part in patch reviewing,
to be assigned some issues and to be more easily CC-ed in various
discussions.  I’d be delighted to see you get involved in that sort of
stuff, but that’s up to you of course!

Cheers,
-- V.

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Re: GitLab access

Urs Liska-3
Am Mittwoch, den 27.05.2020, 10:02 +0200 schrieb Valentin Villenave:

> On 5/27/20, Aaron Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Apologies for hijacking the thread.
>
> No apology needed.
>
> > The link you provided worked for me
> > without needing an account.  What level of access are you talking
> > about?
> >   Is it something a mere mortal like me (i.e. someone who is not
> > currently a collaborator nor contributor) would need?
>
> Well, you most certainly *are* a contributor judging by the number of
> helpful replies, nifty tricks and brilliant snippets you post each
> week on the list :-)
> The GitLab pages are publicly accessible (and I strongly hope they’ll
> remain so); with a GitLab account I *think* there are a few things
> one
> can do (post comments? open issues? unsure),

Yes, that's what you can do as a public visitor of a repository on
these platforms.

but being referenced as a
> project member gives you more access, to take part in patch
> reviewing,
> to be assigned some issues and to be more easily CC-ed in various
> discussions.

If as a public member (i.e. with "only" a Gitlab account) you open an
issue or comment on an issue/MR you will automatically be notified
about activity on that issue (if you don't disable this in your account
settings) too. It's also possible to @mention any username, regardless
of their status in a team.

Urs


> I’d be delighted to see you get involved in that sort of
> stuff, but that’s up to you of course!
>
> Cheers,
> -- V.
>


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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Lib Lists
In reply to this post by Valentin Villenave-3
On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 20:49, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 5/26/20, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > For example, I'd start with the concertmaster's part, then duplicate
> > it and edit it to generate the music the second soloist, then the
> > other soloists, then desks, divisi and so on.
>
> Greetings,
> I wouldn’t recommend to “duplicate” any code. As Xavier said, you can
> easily use multiple for files to enter variables containing music for
> each instrument, then \include these files in a common file to
> generate the full score or the set of individual parts. Even if there
> are some differences needed, you can do pretty much anything with
> different tags and then \keepWithTags or \removeWithTags as needed.
>
> > The other option would be to create temporary staves when needed, but
> > I'm not sure which one is the best strategy.
>
> Generally speaking, Xavier’s trick is definitely what would be best
> suited to that sort of situations. If you need advice on particular
> cases, you’ll need to be more specific.
Hi,
I attach here a modified version of the example linked by Xavier that
hopefully clarifies what I mean. Let's say this is for the violin
part, not for the score (although the staff names are clearly setup to
be used in a score). In the first 10 bars I initially wrote the
content on both voices but couldn't find a way to merge the stems so
that the final result looks like one voice. My solution was to write
the part only to the 'first' first violins. While that works, it's a
bit confusing as both violin groups actually play those notes.
Moreover, the stem is upward, even though there's no material on
another voice and I thought that \skip wouldn't create any output.

The second problem (related with the first) is that starting from bar
11 the voices are separated, which is correct. However, in some cases
(for example if both voices have same rhythm, no other complexity of
any kind, as in this case) I'd want have the voices merged in chords,
and just leave 'div.' to mark it. I don't understand how to do it.

Finally, adding a \shortInstrumentName in the StaffGroup gives an
error, but the resulting pdf is otherwise correct.

Thank you for your help!

>
> Cheers,
> -- V.

200519_LILYPOND_Violin_Divisi_Solution_002_001.ly (2K) Download Attachment
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Re: GitLab access

Aaron Hill
In reply to this post by Valentin Villenave-3
On 2020-05-27 1:02 am, Valentin Villenave wrote:

> On 5/27/20, Aaron Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Apologies for hijacking the thread.
>
> No apology needed.
>
>> The link you provided worked for me
>> without needing an account.  What level of access are you talking
>> about?
>>   Is it something a mere mortal like me (i.e. someone who is not
>> currently a collaborator nor contributor) would need?
>
> Well, you most certainly *are* a contributor judging by the number of
> helpful replies, nifty tricks and brilliant snippets you post each
> week on the list :-)

I guess I see mailing activity as being part of the community but not
implying project membership.  Granted, I have spent enough time digging
about in the source that I probably could have been (or rather should
be) submitting patches for consideration.


> The GitLab pages are publicly accessible (and I strongly hope they’ll
> remain so); with a GitLab account I *think* there are a few things one
> can do (post comments? open issues? unsure), but being referenced as a
> project member gives you more access, to take part in patch reviewing,
> to be assigned some issues and to be more easily CC-ed in various
> discussions.  I’d be delighted to see you get involved in that sort of
> stuff, but that’s up to you of course!

I went ahead and linked my GitHub with GitLab, so I am @seraku24 on both
sites.


-- Aaron Hill

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Re: GitLab access

Valentin Villenave-3
On 5/27/20, Aaron Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I probably could have been (or rather should
> be) submitting patches for consideration.

Hear hear!  But as I said, helping out on the lists is certainly not
less worthy as a way of contributing.

> I went ahead and linked my GitHub with GitLab, so I am @seraku24 on both
> sites.

OK, so now you should be able to send a membership request directly
from GitLab (I’m CCing Jonas just so he knows whom it’s coming from).

Welcome onboard!

Cheers,
-- V.

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Valentin Villenave-3
In reply to this post by Lib Lists
On 5/27/20, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
> merge the stems so
> that the final result looks like one voice.

In that case, what you want clearly is \partcombine (\partCombine since 2.21).

If you have more than two voices, then you can always apply another
\partCombine on top of the first two voices, or use other tricks to
deal with the more complex situations.

> Finally, adding a \shortInstrumentName in the StaffGroup gives an
> error, but the resulting pdf is otherwise correct.

instrumentName and shortInstrumentName are both siple property
definitions, not variables or functions so the \ is not needed; just
     instrumentName = "something".

Cheers,
-- V.

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Lib Lists
On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 18:10, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 5/27/20, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > merge the stems so
> > that the final result looks like one voice.
>
> In that case, what you want clearly is \partcombine (\partCombine since 2.21).
>
> If you have more than two voices, then you can always apply another
> \partCombine on top of the first two voices, or use other tricks to
> deal with the more complex situations.
I understand. Unfortunately I cannot find a way to use the
remove-layer technique with \partcombine (see attached file). I'd like
to hide the top staff while maintaining the staff group between bar
19-24 for the difficult passage. Is there a way to achieve this? In
other words there are four notations that I'd need to achieve for
divisi: unisono, divisi (a2, a3, etc.) on same voice & same staff,
divisi on different voices & same staff, divisi on different staves.

>
> > Finally, adding a \shortInstrumentName in the StaffGroup gives an
> > error, but the resulting pdf is otherwise correct.
>
> instrumentName and shortInstrumentName are both siple property
> definitions, not variables or functions so the \ is not needed; just
>      instrumentName = "something".

That worked, thank you!

>
> Cheers,
> -- V.

200519_LILYPOND_Violin_Divisi_Solution_002_002.ly (2K) Download Attachment
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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Rutger Hofman
I am thinking of sharing my experiences as a user in this field by
contributing a tutorial or a practical experiences story (or whatever)
on this topic. It would make a distinction between:

1) temporary staves
2) divisi allocation over groups of staves

since these are different concepts, and they are handled differently by
the Lilypond user, although both depend on keepAliveInterfaces.

And I could contribute a bit on techniques to have >2 voices per staff,
rhythmically homophonic or rhythmically polyphonic, especially in the
context of divisi staves.

What would be the best venue for this? Lilypond docs? User list? Scores
of Beauty? If it gets into the Lilypond docs, it is there to "stay
forever" which would be nice.

One elaborate example of my experiences is found in the score and parts
of "3 Bruchstücke aus Wozzeck" by Alban Berg, see
https://imslp.org/wiki/Wozzeck%2C_Op.7_(Berg%2C_Alban) (travel to the
tab [Arrangements and Transcriptions]). One can have a look at e.g. the
Violins I part, mvt. 1, Bars 396-404; there is a 5-fold divisi which is
folded into one staff in the full score. Or practically any instrument
group, for that matter.

Rutger

On 5/28/20 10:33 AM, Lib Lists wrote:

> On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 18:10, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/27/20, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> merge the stems so
>>> that the final result looks like one voice.
>>
>> In that case, what you want clearly is \partcombine (\partCombine since 2.21).
>>
>> If you have more than two voices, then you can always apply another
>> \partCombine on top of the first two voices, or use other tricks to
>> deal with the more complex situations.
>
> I understand. Unfortunately I cannot find a way to use the
> remove-layer technique with \partcombine (see attached file). I'd like
> to hide the top staff while maintaining the staff group between bar
> 19-24 for the difficult passage. Is there a way to achieve this? In
> other words there are four notations that I'd need to achieve for
> divisi: unisono, divisi (a2, a3, etc.) on same voice & same staff,
> divisi on different voices & same staff, divisi on different staves.
>
>>
>>> Finally, adding a \shortInstrumentName in the StaffGroup gives an
>>> error, but the resulting pdf is otherwise correct.
>>
>> instrumentName and shortInstrumentName are both siple property
>> definitions, not variables or functions so the \ is not needed; just
>>       instrumentName = "something".
>
> That worked, thank you!
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- V.

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Valentin Villenave-3
On 6/1/20, Rutger Hofman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And I could contribute a bit on techniques to have >2 voices per staff,
> rhythmically homophonic or rhythmically polyphonic, especially in the
> context of divisi staves.

That would certainly be interesting. As you can see in the patch I
posted earlier in this thread, I’ve just been adding some stuff to the
Notation Reference:
https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/91/diffs?view=parallel

There’s no “orchestral music” subsection in NR 2, like there is for
guitar music, percussion etc.; I don’t think it would be wise to have
one because it’s linked with numerous other sections (I could be
convinced otherwise, but I’m really not sure how there’s a reasonable
argument to be made here).

What I’ve been doing instead is use NR 2.1.6.1 (“References for opera
and stage musicals” which is the closest we have to an Orchestra
subsection, and I added a link to that at the very top of NR section 2
“Specialist notation”.

The other main area where we can document stuff is, obviously, NR
1.6.3 “Writing parts” (that’s where I’ve added a new subsection about
\compressMMRests a few months ago). And NR 1.6.2.3 “Hiding staves”,
which is what this patch addresses (on top of recent additions by Jean
Abou Samra).  If you have other ideas that fit well with our current
structure and guidelines, don’t hesitate to chip in.

> What would be the best venue for this? Lilypond docs? User list? Scores
> of Beauty? If it gets into the Lilypond docs, it is there to "stay
> forever" which would be nice.

Sure; you’d need to take into account the most recent version though,
and not what you can find on lilypond.org -- actually, I’ve just
uploaded a recent doc build (that includes my patch about divisi
staves) on
http://lilydoc.villenave.net/Documentation/notation-big-page.html
in case you want to check it out.

Now, depending on what you have in mind, a blog entry might be
preferable, particularly to show off large, beautiful examples.  (Jean
wanted a Berlioz fragment in the NR; that’s about the maximum we can
afford, and even then its source code is not quoted verbatim.)

On that note:

> One elaborate example of my experiences is found in the score and parts
> of "3 Bruchstücke aus Wozzeck" by Alban Berg, see
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Wozzeck%2C_Op.7_(Berg%2C_Alban)

I appreciate that you’re making available your source code, but you
could simply embed it within the PDF files (LilyPond can do that
now!).  See for example
https://imslp.org/wiki/Oboe_Concerto_No.1_in_E-flat_major_(Herschel%2C_William)
(btw, I generally prefer publishing all individual parts as a single
PDF; people can then print whatever they want within it, but it makes
it *much* easier for ensembles out there in my experience,
particularly when IMSLP starts imposing a 15-second delay for all
downloads.)

Cheers,
-- V.

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Lib Lists
In reply to this post by Rutger Hofman
On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 22:16, Rutger Hofman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I am thinking of sharing my experiences as a user in this field by
> contributing a tutorial or a practical experiences story (or whatever)
> on this topic. It would make a distinction between:
>
> 1) temporary staves
> 2) divisi allocation over groups of staves
>
> since these are different concepts, and they are handled differently by
> the Lilypond user, although both depend on keepAliveInterfaces.
>
> And I could contribute a bit on techniques to have >2 voices per staff,
> rhythmically homophonic or rhythmically polyphonic, especially in the
> context of divisi staves.
>
> What would be the best venue for this? Lilypond docs? User list? Scores
> of Beauty? If it gets into the Lilypond docs, it is there to "stay
> forever" which would be nice.
>
> One elaborate example of my experiences is found in the score and parts
> of "3 Bruchstücke aus Wozzeck" by Alban Berg, see
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Wozzeck%2C_Op.7_(Berg%2C_Alban) (travel to the
> tab [Arrangements and Transcriptions]). One can have a look at e.g. the
> Violins I part, mvt. 1, Bars 396-404; there is a 5-fold divisi which is
> folded into one staff in the full score. Or practically any instrument
> group, for that matter.
>
> Rutger

Hi, that would be awesome, and thank you so much for sharing the code
for Wozzeck, that's exactly what I was looking for. I've been trying
to find my way out for days, and even though I'm making steps in the
good direction, it's not an easy job. A commented example on how to
organise a modern large orchestral score and parts with divisi, desks,
solos, temporary staves, and so on would be extremely useful, at least
for me. I couldn't find such an example in the otherwise awesome
documentation, and I was thinking to contribute myself once I'll be
more familiar.
Thank you!

Lib

>
> On 5/28/20 10:33 AM, Lib Lists wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 18:10, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 5/27/20, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> merge the stems so
> >>> that the final result looks like one voice.
> >>
> >> In that case, what you want clearly is \partcombine (\partCombine since 2.21).
> >>
> >> If you have more than two voices, then you can always apply another
> >> \partCombine on top of the first two voices, or use other tricks to
> >> deal with the more complex situations.
> >
> > I understand. Unfortunately I cannot find a way to use the
> > remove-layer technique with \partcombine (see attached file). I'd like
> > to hide the top staff while maintaining the staff group between bar
> > 19-24 for the difficult passage. Is there a way to achieve this? In
> > other words there are four notations that I'd need to achieve for
> > divisi: unisono, divisi (a2, a3, etc.) on same voice & same staff,
> > divisi on different voices & same staff, divisi on different staves.
> >
> >>
> >>> Finally, adding a \shortInstrumentName in the StaffGroup gives an
> >>> error, but the resulting pdf is otherwise correct.
> >>
> >> instrumentName and shortInstrumentName are both siple property
> >> definitions, not variables or functions so the \ is not needed; just
> >>       instrumentName = "something".
> >
> > That worked, thank you!
> >
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -- V.
>

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IMSLP upload policy (was: Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.)

Rutger Hofman
In reply to this post by Valentin Villenave-3


On 6/1/20 10:45 PM, Valentin Villenave wrote:
> On 6/1/20, Rutger Hofman <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]

>
> On that note:
>
>> One elaborate example of my experiences is found in the score and parts
>> of "3 Bruchstücke aus Wozzeck" by Alban Berg, see
>> https://imslp.org/wiki/Wozzeck%2C_Op.7_(Berg%2C_Alban)
>
> I appreciate that you’re making available your source code, but you
> could simply embed it within the PDF files (LilyPond can do that
> now!).  See for example
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Oboe_Concerto_No.1_in_E-flat_major_(Herschel%2C_William)
> (btw, I generally prefer publishing all individual parts as a single
> PDF; people can then print whatever they want within it, but it makes
> it *much* easier for ensembles out there in my experience,
> particularly when IMSLP starts imposing a 15-second delay for all
> downloads.)

I know that pdftk can add attachments to PDFs. Is that now also built
into Lilypond?

My preference for uploading parts is the other way around, i.e. the way
I did it. The parts alone for this typeset total to 311 pages. I don't
like the idea of 100 orchestra members each downloading that huge thing,
also enhanced with a few megabytes of lilypond source, and then each
selecting their own part from it. And to make things worse, orchestra
members might just not print the title page for their part, thereby
ruining the possibility to print double-sided because my carefully
crafted page turns are bogged.

I would of course never urge anybody to get an IMSLP membership :-), but
the fee is (un)reasonably small (a few collaboration actions for IMSLP
would already suffice). And if only the orchestra librarian has an IMSLP
membership, it would allow her to download all parts as a zip and then
distribute them. But in any case, 10 seconds delay would be dwarfed by
the alternative of downloading and perusing 311 pages.

Rutger

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Re: IMSLP upload policy (was: Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.)

Valentin Villenave-3
On 6/2/20, Rutger Hofman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I know that pdftk can add attachments to PDFs. Is that now also built
> into Lilypond?

Well… yes!
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/lilypond.git/commit/?id=0fa6f042cccacb643d46781dde23617c71a9753e

Man, I wish more people would know about that feature.  I need to take
a look at the docs because right now it’s only buried here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.21/Documentation/usage/command_002dline-usage

> My preference for uploading parts is the other way around, i.e. the way
> I did it. The parts alone for this typeset total to 311 pages. I don't
> like the idea of 100 orchestra members each downloading that huge thing,
> also enhanced with a few megabytes of lilypond source

Well, that’s mainly because you have a huge raster image in there :-)

To each their own; your reasons are as valid as mine depending on the
point of view.

> I would of course never urge anybody to get an IMSLP membership :-), but
> the fee is (un)reasonably small (a few collaboration actions for IMSLP
> would already suffice).

Are you spared the waiting time as an IMSLP contributor? I know I’m not.

> But in any case, 10 seconds delay would be dwarfed by
> the alternative of downloading and perusing 311 pages.

I guess it depends how they work; if that’s for printing individual
parts as two-sided booklets (for example with a spiral binding), your
approach is indeed the most convenient. If that’s for downloading
everything as quickly as possible and then being able to keep a copy
at hand, mine works.  (By the way, when it comes to “perusing 311
pages”, LilyPond also supports creating a table of content :-)

Cheers,
-- V.

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Re: Orchestral strings, how to organise score and parts for divisi, solos, desks etc.

Rutger Hofman
In reply to this post by Lib Lists
Well, it turned out to keep that tutorial short. Still, I think it will
have its use, since questions about temp staves/divisi turn up at
regular intervals.

My first attempt is here:

https://www.rutgerhofman.nl/lilypond/divisi-doc/divisi-doc.html

Please, have a look, say what you (don't) like.

I still debate in my head what the best venue for this would be.

Rutger

On 6/2/20 11:33 AM, Lib Lists wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 22:16, Rutger Hofman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I am thinking of sharing my experiences as a user in this field by
>> contributing a tutorial or a practical experiences story (or whatever)
>> on this topic. It would make a distinction between:
>>
>> 1) temporary staves
>> 2) divisi allocation over groups of staves
>>
>> since these are different concepts, and they are handled differently by
>> the Lilypond user, although both depend on keepAliveInterfaces.
>>
>> And I could contribute a bit on techniques to have >2 voices per staff,
>> rhythmically homophonic or rhythmically polyphonic, especially in the
>> context of divisi staves.
>>
>> What would be the best venue for this? Lilypond docs? User list? Scores
>> of Beauty? If it gets into the Lilypond docs, it is there to "stay
>> forever" which would be nice.
>>
>> One elaborate example of my experiences is found in the score and parts
>> of "3 Bruchstücke aus Wozzeck" by Alban Berg, see
>> https://imslp.org/wiki/Wozzeck%2C_Op.7_(Berg%2C_Alban) (travel to the
>> tab [Arrangements and Transcriptions]). One can have a look at e.g. the
>> Violins I part, mvt. 1, Bars 396-404; there is a 5-fold divisi which is
>> folded into one staff in the full score. Or practically any instrument
>> group, for that matter.
>>
>> Rutger
>
> Hi, that would be awesome, and thank you so much for sharing the code
> for Wozzeck, that's exactly what I was looking for. I've been trying
> to find my way out for days, and even though I'm making steps in the
> good direction, it's not an easy job. A commented example on how to
> organise a modern large orchestral score and parts with divisi, desks,
> solos, temporary staves, and so on would be extremely useful, at least
> for me. I couldn't find such an example in the otherwise awesome
> documentation, and I was thinking to contribute myself once I'll be
> more familiar.
> Thank you!
>
> Lib
>>
>> On 5/28/20 10:33 AM, Lib Lists wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 18:10, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/27/20, Lib Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> merge the stems so
>>>>> that the final result looks like one voice.
>>>>
>>>> In that case, what you want clearly is \partcombine (\partCombine since 2.21).
>>>>
>>>> If you have more than two voices, then you can always apply another
>>>> \partCombine on top of the first two voices, or use other tricks to
>>>> deal with the more complex situations.
>>>
>>> I understand. Unfortunately I cannot find a way to use the
>>> remove-layer technique with \partcombine (see attached file). I'd like
>>> to hide the top staff while maintaining the staff group between bar
>>> 19-24 for the difficult passage. Is there a way to achieve this? In
>>> other words there are four notations that I'd need to achieve for
>>> divisi: unisono, divisi (a2, a3, etc.) on same voice & same staff,
>>> divisi on different voices & same staff, divisi on different staves.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Finally, adding a \shortInstrumentName in the StaffGroup gives an
>>>>> error, but the resulting pdf is otherwise correct.
>>>>
>>>> instrumentName and shortInstrumentName are both siple property
>>>> definitions, not variables or functions so the \ is not needed; just
>>>>        instrumentName = "something".
>>>
>>> That worked, thank you!
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -- V.
>>

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Re: IMSLP upload policy

Rutger Hofman
In reply to this post by Valentin Villenave-3


On 6/2/20 8:24 PM, Valentin Villenave wrote:
[snip]

>> I would of course never urge anybody to get an IMSLP membership :-), but
>> the fee is (un)reasonably small (a few collaboration actions for IMSLP
>> would already suffice).
>
> Are you spared the waiting time as an IMSLP contributor? I know I’m not.

When IMSLP turned to the membership-or-delay model, they gave me a
ten-year membership for free because of the number of scores I had
contributed. Members don't see a delay, and they do see 'download all
parts as a zip file'. You might enquire.

Rutger

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