Notehead collisions, accidentals

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Notehead collisions, accidentals

Mark Knoop-4
Hi all,

This is really about three issues, but they're related, so bear with me
please.

1. There seems to have been a decision made at some point to merge
note heads in some cases (see collision-head-chords.ly in the
regression tests and the second chord in the example code below). I
personally find this ugly and cannot find an example in my library of
published music where an engraver has taken this same decision. I
prefer the forked stem solution - see the attached picture. I would be
interested in others' opinions on this, and advice as to any possible
workarounds.

2. Forcing the display of all accidentals with ! demonstrates a
collision bug - perhaps forced accidentals are bypassing the accidental
collision code?

3. These points are both related to a feature request for a new
accidental style which is common in quite a lot of contemporary music.
That is, accidentals, including naturals, before _every_ note,
excepting immediate repetitions.

I see some of these things have been discussed previously, but no
conclusions reached...
http://www.mail-archive.com/lilypond-user@.../msg10504.html

Cheers,

Mark

%%
\version "2.10.13"

melody = {
    \clef treble
    <f'! fis'!>4 <f'! fis'! g'!>4
}

\score {
    \new Staff {
        \melody
    }
    \layout { ragged-right = ##t }
}
%%

--
Mark Knoop

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Re: Notehead collisions, accidentals

Mats Bengtsson-4
Quoting Mark Knoop <[hidden email]>:

> Hi all,
>
> This is really about three issues, but they're related, so bear with me
> please.
>
> 1. There seems to have been a decision made at some point to merge
> note heads in some cases (see collision-head-chords.ly in the
> regression tests and the second chord in the example code below). I
> personally find this ugly and cannot find an example in my library of
> published music where an engraver has taken this same decision. I
> prefer the forked stem solution - see the attached picture. I would be
> interested in others' opinions on this, and advice as to any possible
> workarounds.

Unfortunately, there isn't any support for forked stems in LilyPond
at the moment, but the feature has been requested a number of times
over the years.

>
> 2. Forcing the display of all accidentals with ! demonstrates a
> collision bug - perhaps forced accidentals are bypassing the accidental
> collision code?

If you try
<fis' fes'>4
you will realize that it doesn't have anything to do with forced
accidentals per se. Rather, it seems like a bug that you don't
get a natural if you do
<fis f>

> 3. These points are both related to a feature request for a new
> accidental style which is common in quite a lot of contemporary music.
> That is, accidentals, including naturals, before _every_ note,
> excepting immediate repetitions.

See the section on Automatic Accidentals. You probably want something
close to
#(set-accidental-style 'forget)
however, the tricky aspect is the "except immediate repetitions"
which isn't supported as far as I know.


   /Mats





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Re: Notehead collisions, accidentals

Mark Knoop-4
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:34:32 +0100 Mats Bengtsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quoting Mark Knoop <[hidden email]>:
> > 1. There seems to have been a decision made at some point to merge
> > note heads in some cases (see collision-head-chords.ly in the
> > regression tests and the second chord in the example code below). I
> > personally find this ugly and cannot find an example in my library
> > of published music where an engraver has taken this same decision. I
> > prefer the forked stem solution - see the attached picture. I would
> > be interested in others' opinions on this, and advice as to any
> > possible workarounds.
>
> Unfortunately, there isn't any support for forked stems in LilyPond
> at the moment, but the feature has been requested a number of times
> over the years.

Is there any indication as to the priority this feature has in the
minds of developers? i.e. Is it something that might appear within a
year, or not for at least five years?

> > 2. Forcing the display of all accidentals with ! demonstrates a
> > collision bug - perhaps forced accidentals are bypassing the
> > accidental collision code?
>
> If you try
> <fis' fes'>4
> you will realize that it doesn't have anything to do with forced
> accidentals per se. Rather, it seems like a bug that you don't
> get a natural if you do
> <fis f>

There does not appear to be an issue in the bug list - should I report
this?

> > 3. These points are both related to a feature request for a new
> > accidental style which is common in quite a lot of contemporary
> > music. That is, accidentals, including naturals, before _every_
> > note, excepting immediate repetitions.
>
> See the section on Automatic Accidentals. You probably want something
> close to
> #(set-accidental-style 'forget)
> however, the tricky aspect is the "except immediate repetitions"
> which isn't supported as far as I know.

Yes, #(set-accidental-style 'forget) is the closest option, but that
does not print _any_ natural signs. At the moment my best option is to
just use ! everywhere.

Regards,

Mark

--
Mark Knoop


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Re: Notehead collisions, accidentals

Trevor Bača-2
On 2/10/07, Mark Knoop <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:34:32 +0100 Mats Bengtsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Quoting Mark Knoop <[hidden email]>:
> > > 1. There seems to have been a decision made at some point to merge
> > > note heads in some cases (see collision-head-chords.ly in the
> > > regression tests and the second chord in the example code below). I
> > > personally find this ugly and cannot find an example in my library
> > > of published music where an engraver has taken this same decision. I
> > > prefer the forked stem solution - see the attached picture. I would
> > > be interested in others' opinions on this, and advice as to any
> > > possible workarounds.
> >
> > Unfortunately, there isn't any support for forked stems in LilyPond
> > at the moment, but the feature has been requested a number of times
> > over the years.
>
> Is there any indication as to the priority this feature has in the
> minds of developers? i.e. Is it something that might appear within a
> year, or not for at least five years?
Hi Mark,

Sponsoring is a feature in LilyPond is surprisingly easy and successful:

  http://www.lilypond-design.com/sponsor/index.html

It's a great way to give something to the whole community (and
guarantee an important feature in far less than a year).


> > > 2. Forcing the display of all accidentals with ! demonstrates a
> > > collision bug - perhaps forced accidentals are bypassing the
> > > accidental collision code?
> >
> > If you try
> > <fis' fes'>4
> > you will realize that it doesn't have anything to do with forced
> > accidentals per se. Rather, it seems like a bug that you don't
> > get a natural if you do
> > <fis f>
>
> There does not appear to be an issue in the bug list - should I report
> this?
If it's a bug, please report. Take a look at the submission guidelines
(the most important of which is a small, reasonably sized example).


> > > 3. These points are both related to a feature request for a new
> > > accidental style which is common in quite a lot of contemporary
> > > music. That is, accidentals, including naturals, before _every_
> > > note, excepting immediate repetitions.

So like in Henze's recent scores? Hm. Pretty sure we don't have that
as an option at the moment, but see 9.1.1 just in case.


> > See the section on Automatic Accidentals. You probably want something
> > close to
> > #(set-accidental-style 'forget)
> > however, the tricky aspect is the "except immediate repetitions"
> > which isn't supported as far as I know.
>
> Yes, #(set-accidental-style 'forget) is the closest option, but that
> does not print _any_ natural signs. At the moment my best option is to
> just use ! everywhere.

Again, sponsoring for something like this is definitely a reasonable option.

I'm kinda surprised that we don't already have this treatment for
accidentals. I suppose a lot of us working with contemporary score are
using 'forget, and perhaps that's why it hasn't come up more
frequently.


--
Trevor Bača
[hidden email]

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