New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

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New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

R.H.
INTRO

A big "Hello" to this list!

I am new to Lilypond and worked through the intro documentation. My name is Roland Hüttmann from Switzerland. I am an amateur piano player for almost all genres, but mainly classical music, currently learning the Prelude and Fugue IX of the Well Tempered Clavier Nr. 1 from J.S.Bach, (BWV 584). 

In coding I have quite some experience mainly working with the free community edition of Livecode.com which I very much enjoy this language and believe it can be used in conjunction with Lilypond as it's text processing capabilities are probably the best in the market and it is very easy to learn. 

My teachers in piano are concert pianists (Denis Zhdanov and Elina Akselrud, both Lucerne, Switzerland). My aim here is mainly write educational scores based on such teaching for beginners and advanced students of piano, but maybe also assist in writing newly composed music.

BEGINNER'S QUESTIONS

I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music is polyphonic with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a soprano voice and an alt voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the piano notation: Tremble (G) and bass (F).

1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to the bass clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I would prefer to not having to do this to make the alt separate. It just shares both clefs.

2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle and the beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both clefs or also cross the clefs.

3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I also want to indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for each voice between left and right hand. How can I indicate which hand to use when a fingering number is assigned? Here, this is quite important as it is not always obvious. I want to either use an indication such as RH or LH (right or left hand), or a certain style or color for the fingering.

Thank you in advance for any feedback.

Have fun and enjoy music
Roland




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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Jacques Menu Muzhic
Hello Roland,

It will be easier for the people on this list to help you if you can post an image of the score look you’re aiming at.

JM

Le 21 mai 2020 à 14:53, R.H. <[hidden email]> a écrit :

INTRO

A big "Hello" to this list!

I am new to Lilypond and worked through the intro documentation. My name is Roland Hüttmann from Switzerland. I am an amateur piano player for almost all genres, but mainly classical music, currently learning the Prelude and Fugue IX of the Well Tempered Clavier Nr. 1 from J.S.Bach, (BWV 584). 

In coding I have quite some experience mainly working with the free community edition of Livecode.com which I very much enjoy this language and believe it can be used in conjunction with Lilypond as it's text processing capabilities are probably the best in the market and it is very easy to learn. 

My teachers in piano are concert pianists (Denis Zhdanov and Elina Akselrud, both Lucerne, Switzerland). My aim here is mainly write educational scores based on such teaching for beginners and advanced students of piano, but maybe also assist in writing newly composed music.

BEGINNER'S QUESTIONS

I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music is polyphonic with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a soprano voice and an alt voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the piano notation: Tremble (G) and bass (F).

1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to the bass clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I would prefer to not having to do this to make the alt separate. It just shares both clefs.

2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle and the beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both clefs or also cross the clefs.

3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I also want to indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for each voice between left and right hand. How can I indicate which hand to use when a fingering number is assigned? Here, this is quite important as it is not always obvious. I want to either use an indication such as RH or LH (right or left hand), or a certain style or color for the fingering.

Thank you in advance for any feedback.

Have fun and enjoy music
Roland





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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Lukas-Fabian Moser
In reply to this post by R.H.

Hi Roland,

welcome!

I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music is polyphonic with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a soprano voice and an alt voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the piano notation: Tremble (G) and bass (F).

For everybody's convenience, I attached a sample picture (from the Alte Gesamtausgabe). I _think_ that where you write "clef" (Schlüssel) you actually mean "staff" (Zeile or System - note there's a discrepancy in German/English usage of the word "system").

1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to the bass clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I would prefer to not having to do this to make the alt separate. It just shares both clefs.

No, in a piece like this (that has exactly three voices and stays like this - much easier to deal with than the multi-voice mess one often encounters in 19th century music!), it's almost certainly best to put each voice into one seperate variable:

\version "2.20"

\language "deutsch"

soprano =
{
  R1
  r4 r8 h' cis''4
}

alto =
\relative {
  r4 r8 e' fis4 r16 h,16 cis d
}

basso =
{
  R1*2
  r2 r4 r8 e
  fis4
}

\new PianoStaff
<<
  \new Staff
  <<
    \soprano \\
    \alto
  >>
  \new Staff \with { \clef bass } \basso
>>

2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle and the beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both clefs or also cross the clefs.
This can be done using \change Staff: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-keyboards#changing-staff-manually

3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I also want to indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for each voice between left and right hand. How can I indicate which hand to use when a fingering number is assigned? Here, this is quite important as it is not always obvious. I want to either use an indication such as RH or LH (right or left hand), or a certain style or color for the fingering.

I never did this in LilyPond, but I'm sure some of the folks here on the list will be able to help out.

Best
Lukas



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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by R.H.

> On 21 May 2020, at 14:53, R.H. <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve.

One way to learn is looking at examples, here is one for BWV 861 instead of BWV 854:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/essay/engraved-examples-_0028bwv-861_0029



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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Schneidy
Hi Roland,
Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no relative).
HTH,
Cheers,
Pierre



Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 15:34, Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> On 21 May 2020, at 14:53, R.H. <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve.

One way to learn is looking at examples, here is one for BWV 861 instead of BWV 854:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/essay/engraved-examples-_0028bwv-861_0029




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RE: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Mark Stephen Mrotek
In reply to this post by R.H.

Roland,

I have set  several of the Bach Fugues. Attached (and below) is the template I use. It is for four voices.

 

Mark

 

\version "2.19.49"

\header {

}

\new PianoStaff <<

   \new Staff = "upper" <<

     \time 4/4

     \key f \minor

     \new Voice = "soprano"

     { \voiceOne \relative c'' {    

       f4 f f f }

     }

     \new Voice = "alto"

     { \voiceTwo \relative c'' {    

       aes4 aes aes aes }

     }     

   >>

   \new Staff = "lower" <<

     \time 4/4

     \key f \minor

     \clef bass

     \new Voice = "tenor"

     { \voiceOne \relative c {     

       c4 c c c }

     }   

     \new Voice = "bass"

     { \voiceTwo \relative c {      

       f,4 f f f } 

     }

   >>

>>

    \layout {

     indent = #0

   }

 

 

 

From: lilypond-user [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of R.H.
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 5:53 AM
To: lilypond-user <[hidden email]>
Subject: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

 

INTRO

 

A big "Hello" to this list!

 

I am new to Lilypond and worked through the intro documentation. My name is Roland Hüttmann from Switzerland. I am an amateur piano player for almost all genres, but mainly classical music, currently learning the Prelude and Fugue IX of the Well Tempered Clavier Nr. 1 from J.S.Bach, (BWV 584). 

 

In coding I have quite some experience mainly working with the free community edition of Livecode.com which I very much enjoy this language and believe it can be used in conjunction with Lilypond as it's text processing capabilities are probably the best in the market and it is very easy to learn. 

 

My teachers in piano are concert pianists (Denis Zhdanov and Elina Akselrud, both Lucerne, Switzerland). My aim here is mainly write educational scores based on such teaching for beginners and advanced students of piano, but maybe also assist in writing newly composed music.

 

BEGINNER'S QUESTIONS

 

I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music is polyphonic with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a soprano voice and an alt voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the piano notation: Tremble (G) and bass (F).

 

1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to the bass clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I would prefer to not having to do this to make the alt separate. It just shares both clefs.

 

2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle and the beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both clefs or also cross the clefs.

 

3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I also want to indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for each voice between left and right hand. How can I indicate which hand to use when a fingering number is assigned? Here, this is quite important as it is not always obvious. I want to either use an indication such as RH or LH (right or left hand), or a certain style or color for the fingering.


Thank you in advance for any feedback.

 

Have fun and enjoy music

Roland

 

 

 

 


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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

R.H.
Dear

Mark Stephen Mrotek
Pierre Perol-Schneider
Hans Åberg
Lukas-Fabian Moser
Jacques Menu

Wow, the extremely quick response here is more than anyone could expect. Thank you all for your very nice comments and suggestions. I have to do some homework to get it right. I am confident with your hints that I will succeed and share my solution with you. I know, all that counts is practice.

And thanks to everyone in advance who might also chim in.  

When I have more practice, I also hope to contribute solutions and answer questions...)

Have a nice day
Roland

P.S. I believe, I have enough information for now. But as i was asked to send a picture, I am doing this. I am using the Henle edition from 1960 for the Bach Fugue IX BWV 854. 

In measure 7 you can see the connecting bar for the middle voice from dis to fis.

image.png
Another voice crossing in measure 25 also in the middle voice from B (German H) to Cis.

image.png




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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Lukas-Fabian Moser
In reply to this post by Schneidy
Hi Pierre,

Am 21.05.20 um 15:53 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
>
> Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no
> relative).
> (First measures taken from:
> https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9b/IMSLP411479-PMLP05948-bach-wtk-ur-1.pdf)
>
But what's the point in using _both_

- \change Staff (which is needed anyway for the cross-staff stem situations)

and

- two separate voices for the alto voice, which is in reality (so to
speak) one single straying voice in search for a staff with a clef
suitable for its pitches?

Best
Lukas


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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Valentin Petzel
In reply to this post by R.H.

Okay, for number one:

 

If you name the Staves, i.e. You got something like

\new PianoStaff

<<

\new Staff = "right" { ... }

\new Staff = "left"{ ... }

>>

You can switch a voice between these staves by

\change Staff = "right"

Also see

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-keyboards#changing-staff-manually

 

Number 2: Use \change Staff = ...

 

Number 3:

You can eighter use brackets as discussed here

http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Left-hand-right-hand-editorial-annotation-td161987.html

 

Or you can just add a fingering like rh by note-\finger\markup\normal-text”r.h.”.

You can also define your own fingering functions as in

http://petzel.at/rh_lh_fingering.ly


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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Schneidy
In reply to this post by Lukas-Fabian Moser
Right, I did that quickly without checking the whole score.
Also, as I use \fixed, I found it faster to type.
But again, you're right, it's a single voice.
Cheers,
Pierre

Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 18:29, Lukas-Fabian Moser <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi Pierre,

Am 21.05.20 um 15:53 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
>
> Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no
> relative).
> (First measures taken from:
> https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9b/IMSLP411479-PMLP05948-bach-wtk-ur-1.pdf)
>
But what's the point in using _both_

- \change Staff (which is needed anyway for the cross-staff stem situations)

and

- two separate voices for the alto voice, which is in reality (so to
speak) one single straying voice in search for a staff with a clef
suitable for its pitches?

Best
Lukas

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Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

Schneidy
So here you go.
Cheers,
Pierre
(typos possible)

Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 19:09, Pierre Perol-Schneider <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Right, I did that quickly without checking the whole score.
Also, as I use \fixed, I found it faster to type.
But again, you're right, it's a single voice.
Cheers,
Pierre

Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 18:29, Lukas-Fabian Moser <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi Pierre,

Am 21.05.20 um 15:53 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
>
> Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no
> relative).
> (First measures taken from:
> https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9b/IMSLP411479-PMLP05948-bach-wtk-ur-1.pdf)
>
But what's the point in using _both_

- \change Staff (which is needed anyway for the cross-staff stem situations)

and

- two separate voices for the alto voice, which is in reality (so to
speak) one single straying voice in search for a staff with a clef
suitable for its pitches?

Best
Lukas


bwv854-IX-Fugue.ly (5K) Download Attachment