More pictures to manual

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OxO
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More pictures to manual

OxO
Hi,

I don't know whos making the documentation for Lilypond, but my
suggestion is to put many, many, many ...  more pictures to the manual!

The easiest way to learn Lilypond and to manage the difficulties would
be to have something like a cook book. In this cook book you see nearly
all different ways to make staff-modes, chord-modes, choir-mode ... and
you can just combine them to the results you want to have!

At the moment this does not suffice for me. The manual just gives the
basics, but to get the result from this basics is still very, very
difficult! To write the notes is very, very easy, but to put different
staves together or something else still drives me gracy. I could waste
many stupid questions if there is a manual with many, many more
pictures, showing nearly all possibilites to put staves and notes together!

Is it possible to make such a manual??


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Re: More pictures to manual

Graham Percival

On 5-Jun-05, at 2:49 AM, Roman Käppeler wrote:
> At the moment this does not suffice for me. The manual just gives the
> basics, but to get the result from this basics is still very, very
> difficult! To write the notes is very, very easy, but to put different
> staves together or something else still drives me gracy. I could waste
> many stupid questions if there is a manual with many, many more
> pictures, showing nearly all possibilites to put staves and notes
> together!
>
> Is it possible to make such a manual??

Short answer: no, it's not possible.

Long answer: "nearly all possibilities to put staves and notes
together" is
nearly infinite.  Think about how many instrument combinations are used
in the world.  Chamber groups, orchestra, wind band music, opera,
masses, choirs... there's no way we can cover all the possibilities.  
It's much
more useful to explain how to create (or modify) your own templates.

Cheers,
- Graham


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OxO
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Re: More pictures to manual

OxO
Graham Percival wrote:

>> At the moment this does not suffice for me. The manual just gives
>> the basics, but to get the result from this basics is still very,
>> very difficult! To write the notes is very, very easy, but to put
>> different staves together or something else still drives me gracy. I > could waste many stupid questions if there is a manual with many,
>> many more pictures, showing nearly all possibilites to put staves
>> and notes together!
>>
>> Is it possible to make such a manual??
>
>Short answer: no, it's not possible.
>
>Long answer: "nearly all possibilities to put staves and notes
>together" is nearly infinite.  Think about how many instrument combinations are used in the world.  Chamber groups, orchestra, wind band music, opera, masses, choirs... there's no way we can cover all the possibilities.
>
Yes that's true and I wrote my suggestion a bit inexact. But my opinion
is examples, examples, examples... While trying to do a bit of work I
read the appropriate parts in the manual and the experience was, that
the standard-cases with only few notes logically work without problem,
but put them together to the final result you want to have is still
(too) difficult.

If there are more pictures in the manual, describing more cases with
staves and contexts and so on, it would be a great help!

>It's much more useful to explain how to create (or modify) your own templates.
>
More templates? Maybe, everyone who is interested in contributing can
put a part of his personal .ly file to the web with a picture and others
can take a look to the picture and copy the appropriate parts. Isn't
this possible?


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Re: More pictures to manual

Mats Bengtsson-6
Have you looked at the Tips and Tricks document and the Regression Test
document in the on-line documentation? They provide exactly what you ask
for. Also, all(?) these examples plus more are also available in the
LilyPond Snippet Repository, see that link at
http://www.lilypond.org/web/documentation

    /Mats

Roman Käppeler wrote:

> Graham Percival wrote:
>
>
>>>At the moment this does not suffice for me. The manual just gives
>>>the basics, but to get the result from this basics is still very,
>>>very difficult! To write the notes is very, very easy, but to put
>>>different staves together or something else still drives me gracy. I > could waste many stupid questions if there is a manual with many,
>>>many more pictures, showing nearly all possibilites to put staves
>>>and notes together!
>>>
>>>Is it possible to make such a manual??
>>
>>Short answer: no, it's not possible.
>>
>>Long answer: "nearly all possibilities to put staves and notes
>>together" is nearly infinite.  Think about how many instrument combinations are used in the world.  Chamber groups, orchestra, wind band music, opera, masses, choirs... there's no way we can cover all the possibilities.
>>
>
> Yes that's true and I wrote my suggestion a bit inexact. But my opinion
> is examples, examples, examples... While trying to do a bit of work I
> read the appropriate parts in the manual and the experience was, that
> the standard-cases with only few notes logically work without problem,
> but put them together to the final result you want to have is still
> (too) difficult.
>
> If there are more pictures in the manual, describing more cases with
> staves and contexts and so on, it would be a great help!
>
>
>>It's much more useful to explain how to create (or modify) your own templates.
>>
>
> More templates? Maybe, everyone who is interested in contributing can
> put a part of his personal .ly file to the web with a picture and others
> can take a look to the picture and copy the appropriate parts. Isn't
> this possible?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: More pictures to manual

Erik Sandberg
On Tuesday 07 June 2005 09.58, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> Have you looked at the Tips and Tricks document and the Regression Test
> document in the on-line documentation? They provide exactly what you ask
> for. Also, all(?) these examples plus more are also available in the
> LilyPond Snippet Repository, see that link at
> http://www.lilypond.org/web/documentation
>

You may be interested in looking at Mutopia (www.mutopiaproject.org), which
contains lots of Real examples. (but be sure to only download pieces typeset
with a fairly recent lilypond version, say >=2.4)

Erik


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OxO
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Re: More pictures to manual

OxO
Erik Sandberg wrote:
On Tuesday 07 June 2005 09.58, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
Have you looked at the Tips and Tricks document and the Regression Test
document in the on-line documentation? They provide exactly what you ask
for. Also, all(?) these examples plus more are also available in the
LilyPond Snippet Repository, see that link at
http://www.lilypond.org/web/documentation
You may be interested in looking at Mutopia (www.mutopiaproject.org), which 
contains lots of Real examples. (but be sure to only download pieces typeset 
with a fairly recent lilypond version, say >=2.4)
Yeah, that's great! In this way I wish to have the complete manual, picture after picture. One picture for making partials, one for ... one for voltas one for ...

At the moment many pictures are already included in the manual, but if more pictures are included it would be much easier to make the result!! There should be only a pictured manual showing the different things of doing voltas, staves, instrument names, thrills and so on...

My examples enumerated are already available in the manual, but enhancing the different parts would although be a good idea!

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comparing lilypond (was Re: More pictures to manual)

andersvi
In reply to this post by OxO
It would be extremely useful for someone wanting to compare the
work and performance of Lilypond to other tools to look at
typesetting of some "real-life" examples, examples which have
already been used for such comparisons.

One such set of examples is at CCARH:

 http://www.ccarh.org/publications/reprints/ieee/INDEX.HTM

If we could compare both the printed results and the coding
involved with other tools we already work with, it would be an
indication of how a day of real work would look in lilypond.

-anders

>>> "R" == Roman  <Käppeler <[hidden email]>> writes:
R>
R> Hi,
R> I don't know whos making the documentation for Lilypond, but my
R> suggestion is to put many, many, many ...  more pictures to the manual!


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Re: More pictures to manual

dpeach
In reply to this post by OxO
For me the examples that we have in the manual are good, but not
everything I would like to see.

>>You may be interested in looking at Mutopia (www.mutopiaproject.org), which
>>contains lots of Real examples.

Mutopia has been a huge help to me. What I do is find a piece of music
similar to what I want. Then I modify it to suit my needs. I realize
that as an advanced user of Lilypond, this is not a time saver and can
actually introduce horrible troubleshooting headaches. But for a
beginner, this has been a great help.

So...

What I think would go a long way to helping understand some of the
concepts is to take a full score of various types of music and severely
documenting the .ly file. That way someone can read the .ly file of the
music and get the snippets in context. You would not have to do every
style of music, nor even really complicated ones. Probably 5 well chosen
pieces (or even made up pieces with no musical value) would do it. For
example have a vocal/choir piece, an instrumental with several staves,
modern, classical and something else.

Not every Lilypond concept could be covered, but much of the basics will
be there. But the key is documenting the .ly file so that the reader can
see in context how the whole is constructed.

If this exists, then forgive the suggestion and point me to the right
place. The snippets help, but I am better helped by seeing the whole
rather than the parts that make it.

dpeach


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Re: More pictures to manual

Mats Bengtsson-6
I really hope that you have seen the section in the manual called
"Example Templates". I agree that this section could be improved
further if these templates had more comments (maybe not within the
template itself but in the accompanying text).
Another hint is to use jedit as text editor since it has very good
support for LilyPond, including an automatic template setup function
where you specify what you want in your score using a graphical
interface.

    /Mats

dpeach wrote:

> For me the examples that we have in the manual are good, but not
> everything I would like to see.
>
>>> You may be interested in looking at Mutopia (www.mutopiaproject.org),
>>> which contains lots of Real examples.
>
>
> Mutopia has been a huge help to me. What I do is find a piece of music
> similar to what I want. Then I modify it to suit my needs. I realize
> that as an advanced user of Lilypond, this is not a time saver and can
> actually introduce horrible troubleshooting headaches. But for a
> beginner, this has been a great help.
>
> So...
>
> What I think would go a long way to helping understand some of the
> concepts is to take a full score of various types of music and severely
> documenting the .ly file. That way someone can read the .ly file of the
> music and get the snippets in context. You would not have to do every
> style of music, nor even really complicated ones. Probably 5 well chosen
> pieces (or even made up pieces with no musical value) would do it. For
> example have a vocal/choir piece, an instrumental with several staves,
> modern, classical and something else.
>
> Not every Lilypond concept could be covered, but much of the basics will
> be there. But the key is documenting the .ly file so that the reader can
> see in context how the whole is constructed.
>
> If this exists, then forgive the suggestion and point me to the right
> place. The snippets help, but I am better helped by seeing the whole
> rather than the parts that make it.
>
> dpeach
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: More pictures to manual

Graham Percival
In reply to this post by dpeach

On 12-Jun-05, at 11:57 AM, dpeach wrote:
> What I think would go a long way to helping understand some of the
> concepts is to take a full score of various types of music and
> severely documenting the .ly file. That way someone can read the .ly
> file of the music and get the snippets in context. You would not have
> to do every style of music, nor even really complicated ones. Probably
> 5 well chosen pieces (or even made up pieces with no musical value)
> would do it. For example have a vocal/choir piece, an instrumental
> with several staves, modern, classical and something else.

It should either be a real piece or small snippets.  I don't see the
value of a
large piece with no musical value.

If you want to write such docs, I'd welcome it.

> Not every Lilypond concept could be covered, but much of the basics
> will be there. But the key is documenting the .ly file so that the
> reader can see in context how the whole is constructed.

That suggests that we should make more docs to show how to construct
complete
pieces.  This has been begun in chapter 4; again, I welcome
contributions to the
docs.

- Graham



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