# MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

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## MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 Hello, I find oboe and french horn, but no oboe d’amore in A.6 MIDI instruments. Which other setting can I use for this instrument in A? There’s no clarinet in A either. Thanks for your help! JM _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 Hi Jacques, > I find oboe and french horn, but no oboe d’amore in A.6 MIDI instruments. > > Which other setting can I use for this instrument in A? There’s no clarinet in A either. To be honest, I fail to see the relation between the transposition of an instrument and the MIDI instruments to be used for it. Of course, an Oboe d'amore has a unique sound distinct from the oboe (and the English Horn/Cor anglais, for that matter - I'm not sure what you mean by mentioning the french horn in this context?), but of all the standard midi instruments, I would assume that an Oboe sound should come closest. (Just like, for most MIDI patch sets, the distance between their "Clarinet" sound and any real clarinet, be it in b-flat, a or even c, is probably much larger than the difference between those instruments in real life.) Someone interested in obtaining realistic sounds would probably a) not use LilyPond as a MIDI generator anyway, and b) use a dedicated collection of sampled instruments where it does not matter much which MIDI instrument number is used, as long as the right patch set is going to be connected. Lukas _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 In reply to this post by Jacques Menu Muzhic On 2019-04-29 9:28 am, Jacques Menu wrote: > Hello, > > I find oboe and french horn, but no oboe d’amore in A.6 MIDI > instruments. > Which other setting can I use for this instrument in A? General MIDI does not define such an instrument in the standard, and neither did GS nor XG.  In fact, the reed section of GM Level 2 has no extended patches at all.  (GS and XG do have variations like the "bass clarinet" and some alternate saxophone patches.) While it would not be standards-compliant, you could certainly select an alternate bank for the oboe patch with the intention that it means an oboe d'amore.  For your own usage, it would require you to manually configure your synth to load a suitable sound for the instrument.  For other folks using your MIDI file, their synths should fall back using a standard oboe patch which might work, except for lower notes that could be outside the playable range.  From what I understand, an oboe d'amore has a timbre between the normal oboe and the cor anglais.  What I would do in my virtual instrument software is load up an oboe patch but then apply some EQ to soften the sound a bit so it is not quite as assertive.  For the fact that the playable range is lower, I might also need to mix in a little of the English horn patch to fill out the lower notes, which will require blending to balance the timbre.  But it must be noted that this work is beyond the scope of MIDI. > There’s no clarinet in A either. For better or worse, a "clarinet in A" is simply a clarinet as far as General MIDI is concerned.  In MIDI you typically specify the pitch you want played, not the note that is written that may sound higher or lower depending on the instrument.  As such, MIDI note 60 would most often refer to the equal-tempered middle C whose fundamental is approximately 261.63 Hz, and one should expect that any GM-compliant synth to render the pitch properly.  That said, I have encountered some sound libraries that intentionally transpose samples from their nominal pitches; and that requires manually transposing a MIDI track to compensate.  I dislike this practice as it is not very portable. -- Aaron Hill _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 Thanks Lukas and Aaron for your help. In fact, my use case is merely to listen to the MIDI file from within Frescobaldi, to ear-proof the score. I don’t have any MIDI equipment, and organ sound is fine for that purpose. I got the surprise that transposing a voice for the oboe d’amore in A, in Lully’s « Dormez beaux yeux » for the needs of our oboes band, lead to quite modern music being heard... What would best suit my need is a way to counter-balance the effect of \transpose in the \midi block. This way, one would get both the printed score and the MIDI pitches alright, even for instruments unknown to standard MIDI. Can that be done? JM > Le 29 avr. 2019 à 20:53, Aaron Hill <[hidden email]> a écrit : > > On 2019-04-29 9:28 am, Jacques Menu wrote: >> Hello, >> I find oboe and french horn, but no oboe d’amore in A.6 MIDI instruments. >> Which other setting can I use for this instrument in A? > > General MIDI does not define such an instrument in the standard, and neither did GS nor XG.  In fact, the reed section of GM Level 2 has no extended patches at all.  (GS and XG do have variations like the "bass clarinet" and some alternate saxophone patches.) > > While it would not be standards-compliant, you could certainly select an alternate bank for the oboe patch with the intention that it means an oboe d'amore.  For your own usage, it would require you to manually configure your synth to load a suitable sound for the instrument.  For other folks using your MIDI file, their synths should fall back using a standard oboe patch which might work, except for lower notes that could be outside the playable range. > > From what I understand, an oboe d'amore has a timbre between the normal oboe and the cor anglais.  What I would do in my virtual instrument software is load up an oboe patch but then apply some EQ to soften the sound a bit so it is not quite as assertive.  For the fact that the playable range is lower, I might also need to mix in a little of the English horn patch to fill out the lower notes, which will require blending to balance the timbre.  But it must be noted that this work is beyond the scope of MIDI. > >> There’s no clarinet in A either. > > For better or worse, a "clarinet in A" is simply a clarinet as far as General MIDI is concerned.  In MIDI you typically specify the pitch you want played, not the note that is written that may sound higher or lower depending on the instrument.  As such, MIDI note 60 would most often refer to the equal-tempered middle C whose fundamental is approximately 261.63 Hz, and one should expect that any GM-compliant synth to render the pitch properly.  That said, I have encountered some sound libraries that intentionally transpose samples from their nominal pitches; and that requires manually transposing a MIDI track to compensate.  I dislike this practice as it is not very portable. > > > -- Aaron Hill > > _______________________________________________ > lilypond-user mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 Hi Aaron, just a question: Did you set "\transposition a"? (http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches.html#instrument-transpositions) HTH Jan-Peter Am 30.04.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jacques Menu: > Thanks Lukas and Aaron for your help. > > In fact, my use case is merely to listen to the MIDI file from within Frescobaldi, to ear-proof the score. I don’t have any MIDI equipment, and organ sound is fine for that purpose. > > I got the surprise that transposing a voice for the oboe d’amore in A, in Lully’s « Dormez beaux yeux » for the needs of our oboes band, lead to quite modern music being heard... > > What would best suit my need is a way to counter-balance the effect of \transpose in the \midi block. This way, one would get both the printed score and the MIDI pitches alright, even for instruments unknown to standard MIDI. > > Can that be done? > > JM > >> Le 29 avr. 2019 à 20:53, Aaron Hill <[hidden email]> a écrit : >> >> On 2019-04-29 9:28 am, Jacques Menu wrote: >>> Hello, >>> I find oboe and french horn, but no oboe d’amore in A.6 MIDI instruments. >>> Which other setting can I use for this instrument in A? >> >> General MIDI does not define such an instrument in the standard, and neither did GS nor XG.  In fact, the reed section of GM Level 2 has no extended patches at all.  (GS and XG do have variations like the "bass clarinet" and some alternate saxophone patches.) >> >> While it would not be standards-compliant, you could certainly select an alternate bank for the oboe patch with the intention that it means an oboe d'amore.  For your own usage, it would require you to manually configure your synth to load a suitable sound for the instrument.  For other folks using your MIDI file, their synths should fall back using a standard oboe patch which might work, except for lower notes that could be outside the playable range. >> >> From what I understand, an oboe d'amore has a timbre between the normal oboe and the cor anglais.  What I would do in my virtual instrument software is load up an oboe patch but then apply some EQ to soften the sound a bit so it is not quite as assertive.  For the fact that the playable range is lower, I might also need to mix in a little of the English horn patch to fill out the lower notes, which will require blending to balance the timbre.  But it must be noted that this work is beyond the scope of MIDI. >> >>> There’s no clarinet in A either. >> >> For better or worse, a "clarinet in A" is simply a clarinet as far as General MIDI is concerned.  In MIDI you typically specify the pitch you want played, not the note that is written that may sound higher or lower depending on the instrument.  As such, MIDI note 60 would most often refer to the equal-tempered middle C whose fundamental is approximately 261.63 Hz, and one should expect that any GM-compliant synth to render the pitch properly.  That said, I have encountered some sound libraries that intentionally transpose samples from their nominal pitches; and that requires manually transposing a MIDI track to compensate.  I dislike this practice as it is not very portable. >> >> >> -- Aaron Hill >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lilypond-user mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user> > > _______________________________________________ > lilypond-user mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user> _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 In reply to this post by Jacques Menu Muzhic Jacques Menu <[hidden email]> writes: > Thanks Lukas and Aaron for your help. > > In fact, my use case is merely to listen to the MIDI file from within > Frescobaldi, to ear-proof the score. I don’t have any MIDI equipment, > and organ sound is fine for that purpose. > > I got the surprise that transposing a voice for the oboe d’amore in A, > in Lully’s « Dormez beaux yeux » for the needs of our oboes band, lead > to quite modern music being heard... > > What would best suit my need is a way to counter-balance the effect of > \transpose in the \midi block. This way, one would get both the > printed score and the MIDI pitches alright, even for instruments > unknown to standard MIDI. > > Can that be done? That's what \transposition is for.  Look it up in the manual. -- David Kastrup _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 David Kastrup <[hidden email]> writes: > Jacques Menu <[hidden email]> writes: > >> Thanks Lukas and Aaron for your help. >> >> In fact, my use case is merely to listen to the MIDI file from within >> Frescobaldi, to ear-proof the score. I don’t have any MIDI equipment, >> and organ sound is fine for that purpose. >> >> I got the surprise that transposing a voice for the oboe d’amore in A, >> in Lully’s « Dormez beaux yeux » for the needs of our oboes band, lead >> to quite modern music being heard... >> >> What would best suit my need is a way to counter-balance the effect of >> \transpose in the \midi block. This way, one would get both the >> printed score and the MIDI pitches alright, even for instruments >> unknown to standard MIDI. >> >> Can that be done? > > That's what \transposition is for.  Look it up in the manual. Note: as opposed to \transpose (completely different thing in both semantics and syntax though looking rather similar). -- David Kastrup _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 Unfortunately, \transposition can only be used when the notes are written in « instrument » pitch, not concert pitch. BTW, it could be better named as something like \transposingInstrument, it seems.I started by writing the code to obtain the same score as the manuscript I’m using, where the first staff is written for a viola, hence my notes are in concert pitch.Then I added \transpose to have it printed for an oboe d’amore.But then I can no longer proof it by ear without changing the MIDI output too, which I don’t know how to do.I’d prefer to keep the notes unchanged, in concert pitch, instead of modifying them - hence my post.JMLe 30 avr. 2019 à 11:20, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> a écrit :David Kastrup <[hidden email]> writes:Jacques Menu <[hidden email]> writes:Thanks Lukas and Aaron for your help.In fact, my use case is merely to listen to the MIDI file from withinFrescobaldi, to ear-proof the score. I don’t have any MIDI equipment,and organ sound is fine for that purpose.I got the surprise that transposing a voice for the oboe d’amore in A,in Lully’s « Dormez beaux yeux » for the needs of our oboes band, leadto quite modern music being heard...What would best suit my need is a way to counter-balance the effect of\transpose in the \midi block. This way, one would get both theprinted score and the MIDI pitches alright, even for instrumentsunknown to standard MIDI.Can that be done?That's what \transposition is for.  Look it up in the manual.Note: as opposed to \transpose (completely different thing in bothsemantics and syntax though looking rather similar).-- David Kastrup_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 In reply to this post by David Kastrup Jacques Menu <[hidden email]> writes: > Unfortunately, \transposition can only be used when the notes are written in « > instrument » pitch, not concert pitch. Says who? > BTW, it could be better named as something like > \transposingInstrument, it seems. Why? > I started by writing the code to obtain the same score as the > manuscript shown below, where the first staff is written for a viola, > hence my notes are in concert pitch. > > Then I added \transpose to have it printed for an oboe d'amore: > > > But then I can no longer proof it by ear without changing the MIDI > output too, which I don’t know how to do. With \transposition . > I’d prefer to keep the notes unchanged, in concert pitch, instead of > modifying them - hence my post. How about a minimal example exhibiting the problem? -- David Kastrup _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 In reply to this post by Jacques Menu Muzhic Hi, Am 01.05.19 um 09:55 schrieb Jacques Menu: Unfortunately, \transposition can only be used when the notes are written in « instrument » pitch, not concert pitch. BTW, it could be better named as something like \transposingInstrument, it seems. I started by writing the code to obtain the same score as the manuscript I’m using, where the first staff is written for a viola, hence my notes are in concert pitch. Then I added \transpose to have it printed for an oboe d’amore. But then I can no longer proof it by ear without changing the MIDI output too, which I don’t know how to do. I’d prefer to keep the notes unchanged, in concert pitch, instead of modifying them - hence my post. But \transposition and \transpose may be used together. So, of course you may very well enter your Oboe d'amore part in concert pitch. Then \transpose lets you get the correct written pitch, and \transposition takes care of keeping the generated MIDI in check. For example, try this: \version "2.19.82" oboe_d_amore_concertpitch = \relative c' {   \key e \major   e4. 8 8 8 dis e   fis4 fis fis r } \score {   \new Staff \transpose a c' { \transposition a \oboe_d_amore_concertpitch }   \layout {} \midi {} } Lukas _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 In reply to this post by David Kastrup Le 1 mai 2019 à 10:01, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> a écrit :Jacques Menu <[hidden email]> writes:Unfortunately, \transposition can only be used when the notes are written in «instrument » pitch, not concert pitch.Says who?The LPNR:The pitch to use for \transposition should correspond to the real sound heard when a c' written on the staff is played by the transposing instrument. This pitch is entered in absolute mode, so an instrument that produces a real sound which is one tone higher than the printed music should use \transposition d'.  \transposition should only be used if the pitches are not being entered in concert pitch.BTW, it could be better named as something like\transposingInstrument, it seems.Why?Would be more explicit: transposition can be understood as the act of transposing, whereas \transpose exists too.I started by writing the code to obtain the same score as themanuscript shown below, where the first staff is written for a viola,hence my notes are in concert pitch.Then I added \transpose to have it printed for an oboe d'amore:But then I can no longer proof it by ear without changing the MIDIoutput too, which I don’t know how to do.With \transposition .I did various attempts at that, but was unsuccessful.I’d prefer to keep the notes unchanged, in concert pitch, instead ofmodifying them - hence my post.How about a minimal example exhibiting the problem?I extracted the first two measures so that the phenomenon is clear, sorry if that’s a bit long.Comment the line :          \transpose a c' % <<<<<<========= HEREto hear the music as it I need it to sound.JM%%%%%%%%%%%%%\version "2.19.82"Part_POne_Staff_One_Voice_One = \relative {  \partial 2  \key bes \major  \numericTimeSignature \time 3/2  g'2 | % 1  g1 g2 | % 2}Part_PTwo_Staff_One_Voice_One = \relative {  \partial 2  \key bes \major  \numericTimeSignature \time 3/2  \clef "bass"  ees'2 | % 1  d1 ees2 | % 2}Part_PThree_Staff_One_Voice_One = \relative {  \partial 2  \key bes \major  \numericTimeSignature \time 3/2  \clef "bass"  c'2 | % 1  b!1 c2 | % 2}\score {  <<    \new StaffGroup <<      \new Staff = "Part_POne_Staff_One"      \with {        instrumentName = "Hautbois d'amour"      }      <<        \context Voice = "Part_POne_Staff_One_Voice_One" <<          \transpose a c' % <<<<<<========= HERE          \Part_POne_Staff_One_Voice_One        >>      >>      \new Staff = "Part_PTwo_Staff_One"      \with {        instrumentName = "Basson 1"      }      <<        \context Voice = "Part_PTwo_Staff_One_Voice_One" <<          \Part_PTwo_Staff_One_Voice_One        >>      >>      \new Staff = "Part_PThree_Staff_One"      \with {        instrumentName = "Basson 2"      }      <<        \context Voice = "Part_PThree_Staff_One_Voice_One" <<          \Part_PThree_Staff_One_Voice_One        >>      >>    >>  >>  \layout { }  \midi {    \tempo 2 = 90  }}%%%%%%%%%%%%%_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: MIDI instrument for oboe d'amore

 The LPNR: The pitch to use for \transposition should correspond to the real sound heard when a c' written on the staff is played by the transposing instrument. This pitch is entered in absolute mode, so an instrument that produces a real sound which is one tone higher than the printed music should use \transposition d'.  \transposition should only be used if the pitches are not being entered in concert pitch. Well, yeah, that _might_ be seen as a little misleading. Certainly, that statement is supposed to say: It does not make sense to use \transposition for concert-pitch music. But using \transpose a c' \some_concert_pitch_music_for_oboe_damore in effect creates music _not_ in concert pitch, for which then \transposition can (and should) be used, like in the example I gave earlier. Lukas _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user