Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

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Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Antonio Ortega Brook
Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
sorry for the inconvenience.
Anyway, I get the following error when trying to display key names in a
saxophone diagram:

/Applications/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55:
Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
Exited with return code 1.

Example:

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two four five six))
  (lh . (b))
  (rh . (ees)))
}
}

\score {
<a' aih''> ^\fingering
}

Attached is the expected result.
Best regards
--
Antonio

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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Valentin Villenave-3
On 5/21/20, Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
> for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
> list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
> sorry for the inconvenience.

Greetings,
that’s not a problem since your bug report was nearly perfect.  It
took me a while to track down the problem (a stupid typo), but I think
I’ve found it; if my patch is accepted, then your issue will be fixed
in the next development release (2.21.2) when it comes out.

Unfortunately there is (as far as I know) no convenient way of editing
the source files on Mac OS, so you may be stuck until then if you need
those diagrams.

Cheers,
-- V.

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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Carl Sorensen-3
In reply to this post by Antonio Ortega Brook
Valentin,

Thanks for the quick fix.  I was trying to fix it, but I'm not as fast as you.

If you attach the proper copy of scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm to an email,  I can give Antonio instructions about how to get the file into the proper place on his MacOS.

The instructions:

Browse (using finder) to the folder containing LilyPond.app
Right-click (or control-click) on LilyPond.app, and select "Show Contents"
Click on Resources
Click on Share
Click on lilypond
Click on 2.20.0
Click on scm
Drag the proper copy of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm into the scm/ folder.

This procedure is necessary because I don't think we've ever had a version without this typo.

HTH,

Carl



On 5/20/20, 5:42 PM, "Antonio Ortega Brook" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
sorry for the inconvenience.
Anyway, I get the following error when trying to display key names in a
saxophone diagram:

/Applications/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55:
Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
Exited with return code 1.

Example:

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two four five six))
  (lh . (b))
  (rh . (ees)))
}
}

\score {
<a' aih''> ^\fingering
}

Attached is the expected result.
Best regards
--
Antonio

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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Antonio Ortega Brook
Oh, don't worry, I've already edited the file (just took a look at
Valentin's merge request to see what was changed).
After fixing this a new issue came up: in text mode, the octave key is
displayed as a misaligned circle, instead of a T letter.
I paste the code below an attach the output.
Cheers

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two three five))
  (lh . (T bes))
  (rh . ()))
}
}

\score {
<g' fis''> ^\fingering
}

On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 20:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Valentin,
>
> Thanks for the quick fix.  I was trying to fix it, but I'm not as fast as
> you.
>
> If you attach the proper copy of scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm to an
> email,  I can give Antonio instructions about how to get the file into the
> proper place on his MacOS.
>
> The instructions:
>
> Browse (using finder) to the folder containing LilyPond.app
> Right-click (or control-click) on LilyPond.app, and select "Show Contents"
> Click on Resources
> Click on Share
> Click on lilypond
> Click on 2.20.0
> Click on scm
> Drag the proper copy of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm into the scm/ folder.
>
> This procedure is necessary because I don't think we've ever had a version
> without this typo.
>
> HTH,
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> On 5/20/20, 5:42 PM, "Antonio Ortega Brook" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
> for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
> list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
> sorry for the inconvenience.
> Anyway, I get the following error when trying to display key names in a
> saxophone diagram:
>
>
> /Applications/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55:
> Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
> Exited with return code 1.
>
> Example:
>
> \version "2.20.0"
>
> fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
> \center-column {
> \woodwind-diagram
> #'saxophone
> #'((cc . (one two four five six))
>   (lh . (b))
>   (rh . (ees)))
> }
> }
>
> \score {
> <a' aih''> ^\fingering
> }
>
> Attached is the expected result.
> Best regards
> --
> Antonio
>
>
--
Antonio Ortega Brook

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bug-lilypond mailing list
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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Carl Sorensen-3
What is the desired output?

Carl

From: Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 7:13 PM
To: Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Oh, don't worry, I've already edited the file (just took a look at Valentin's merge request to see what was changed).
After fixing this a new issue came up: in text mode, the octave key is displayed as a misaligned circle, instead of a T letter.
I paste the code below an attach the output.
Cheers

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two three five))
  (lh . (T bes))
  (rh . ()))
}
}

\score {
<g' fis''> ^\fingering
}

On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 20:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
Valentin,

Thanks for the quick fix.  I was trying to fix it, but I'm not as fast as you.

If you attach the proper copy of scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm to an email,  I can give Antonio instructions about how to get the file into the proper place on his MacOS.

The instructions:

Browse (using finder) to the folder containing LilyPond.app
Right-click (or control-click) on LilyPond.app, and select "Show Contents"
Click on Resources
Click on Share
Click on lilypond
Click on 2.20.0
Click on scm
Drag the proper copy of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm into the scm/ folder.

This procedure is necessary because I don't think we've ever had a version without this typo.

HTH,

Carl



On 5/20/20, 5:42 PM, "Antonio Ortega Brook" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
sorry for the inconvenience.
Anyway, I get the following error when trying to display key names in a
saxophone diagram:

/Applications/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55:
Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
Exited with return code 1.

Example:

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two four five six))
  (lh . (b))
  (rh . (ees)))
}
}

\score {
<a' aih''> ^\fingering
}

Attached is the expected result.
Best regards
--
Antonio


--
Antonio Ortega Brook
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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Antonio Ortega Brook
This would be the desired output

On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 22:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What is the desired output?
>
>
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> *From: *Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]>
> *Date: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 7:13 PM
> *To: *Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>
> *Cc: *"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <
> [hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]>
> *Subject: *Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram
>
>
>
> Oh, don't worry, I've already edited the file (just took a look at
> Valentin's merge request to see what was changed).
>
> After fixing this a new issue came up: in text mode, the octave key is
> displayed as a misaligned circle, instead of a T letter.
>
> I paste the code below an attach the output.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> \version "2.20.0"
>
>
>
> fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
>
> \center-column {
>
> \woodwind-diagram
>
> #'saxophone
>
> #'((cc . (one two three five))
>
>   (lh . (T bes))
>
>   (rh . ()))
>
> }
>
> }
>
>
>
> \score {
>
> <g' fis''> ^\fingering
>
> }
>
>
>
> On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 20:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Valentin,
>
> Thanks for the quick fix.  I was trying to fix it, but I'm not as fast as
> you.
>
> If you attach the proper copy of scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm to an
> email,  I can give Antonio instructions about how to get the file into the
> proper place on his MacOS.
>
> The instructions:
>
> Browse (using finder) to the folder containing LilyPond.app
> Right-click (or control-click) on LilyPond.app, and select "Show Contents"
> Click on Resources
> Click on Share
> Click on lilypond
> Click on 2.20.0
> Click on scm
> Drag the proper copy of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm into the scm/ folder.
>
> This procedure is necessary because I don't think we've ever had a version
> without this typo.
>
> HTH,
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> On 5/20/20, 5:42 PM, "Antonio Ortega Brook" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
> for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
> list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
> sorry for the inconvenience.
> Anyway, I get the following error when trying to display key names in a
> saxophone diagram:
>
>
> /Applications/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55:
> Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
> Exited with return code 1.
>
> Example:
>
> \version "2.20.0"
>
> fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
> \center-column {
> \woodwind-diagram
> #'saxophone
> #'((cc . (one two four five six))
>   (lh . (b))
>   (rh . (ees)))
> }
> }
>
> \score {
> <a' aih''> ^\fingering
> }
>
> Attached is the expected result.
> Best regards
> --
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Antonio Ortega Brook
>

--
Antonio Ortega Brook

_______________________________________________
bug-lilypond mailing list
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AW: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Torsten Hämmerle
In reply to this post by Antonio Ortega Brook
Hi Antonio,

The saxophone T key (octave key) is more or less being regarded as a standard hole (like the thumb hole on the recorder) and thus will not be displayed as the letter "T" but as a graphical "thumb hole" even in textual representation.
This is also the case for the clarinet duodecim key (thumb) and others.

But I agree with you that it's misaligned, as the positioning of the T key is different in graphical and textual representation for an unknown reason.


@Carl: There's still a remaining problem with the special baritone low a key that obviously has been completely forgotten in the textual representation and will also lead to a crash (low-a and low-aT concerned):

\markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
  \woodwind-diagram
  #'baritone-saxophone
  #'((cc . ()) (lh . (low-a)) (rh . ()))
}

-->
[…]/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55: Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
Exited with return code 1.

All the best
Torsten



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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Carl Sorensen-3
In reply to this post by Antonio Ortega Brook
Here’s a version of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm that I think will work, but I don’t know enough about saxophone diagrams to say. Please give it a try.

It would be nice if you could create a regression test that tests all of the desired behavior of saxophone diagrams in both text mode and graphical mode.  Then we would have some way of ensuring things work properly.

With this code

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override  #'(graphical . #f)
{
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two three five))
  (lh . ( T bes))
  (rh . ()))
}
}

fingeringGraph = \markup %\override  #'(graphical . #f)
{
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two three five))
  (lh . (T bes ))
  (rh . ()))
}
}

\score {
{
  <g' fis''> ^\fingering
  r r
  <g' fis''> ^\fingeringGraph
}
}

I got what appears to match your desired output in Text mode, as well as the proper output in graphical mode (I think).

Carl


From: Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 9:18 PM
To: Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

This would be the desired output

On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 22:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
What is the desired output?

Carl

From: Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 7:13 PM
To: Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Cc: "[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Subject: Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Oh, don't worry, I've already edited the file (just took a look at Valentin's merge request to see what was changed).
After fixing this a new issue came up: in text mode, the octave key is displayed as a misaligned circle, instead of a T letter.
I paste the code below an attach the output.
Cheers

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two three five))
  (lh . (T bes))
  (rh . ()))
}
}

\score {
<g' fis''> ^\fingering
}

On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 20:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
Valentin,

Thanks for the quick fix.  I was trying to fix it, but I'm not as fast as you.

If you attach the proper copy of scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm to an email,  I can give Antonio instructions about how to get the file into the proper place on his MacOS.

The instructions:

Browse (using finder) to the folder containing LilyPond.app
Right-click (or control-click) on LilyPond.app, and select "Show Contents"
Click on Resources
Click on Share
Click on lilypond
Click on 2.20.0
Click on scm
Drag the proper copy of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm into the scm/ folder.

This procedure is necessary because I don't think we've ever had a version without this typo.

HTH,

Carl



On 5/20/20, 5:42 PM, "Antonio Ortega Brook" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
sorry for the inconvenience.
Anyway, I get the following error when trying to display key names in a
saxophone diagram:

/Applications/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55:
Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
Exited with return code 1.

Example:

\version "2.20.0"

fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . (one two four five six))
  (lh . (b))
  (rh . (ees)))
}
}

\score {
<a' aih''> ^\fingering
}

Attached is the expected result.
Best regards
--
Antonio


--
Antonio Ortega Brook


--
Antonio Ortega Brook

_______________________________________________
bug-lilypond mailing list
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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Antonio Ortega Brook
@Torsten: yes I'm aware of that. I've also seen it represented as an "8" or
as "ok". I don't know which of the forms is more frequent (and the
saxophonists I'm currently working with seem to prefer different ones) and
I also don't know which convention should LilyPond adhere to, but now I
think it would make more sense to display it as standard hole, like you
said, because that's how LilyPond displays it in clarinet diagrams. For me,
personally (not being a saxophonist myself), any of them is fine, and if I
happen to need the "T" letter (or "8"), I guess I could just use markup
text.

@Carl: yes, that's exactly what I was looking for (although things may have
changed a bit, now...), thank you very much. As far as I can tell,
everything seems to be working as expected.
About the regression test, I'm not sure of what it means (I'm not a "real
programmer", just an amateur...) but I thought I could make a fingering
chart or something like that and check that every possible fingering is
correct in both modes with the help of a professional saxophonist. Please
let me know if I could be of help in any other way.

Best regards,
Antonio

PS: (I must say now) sorry if my English is not good...

On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 13:07, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here’s a version of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm that I think will work,
> but I don’t know enough about saxophone diagrams to say. Please give it a
> try.
>
>
>
> It would be nice if you could create a regression test that tests all of
> the desired behavior of saxophone diagrams in both text mode and graphical
> mode.  Then we would have some way of ensuring things work properly.
>
>
>
> With this code
>
>
>
> \version "2.20.0"
>
>
>
> fingering = \markup \override  #'(graphical . #f)
>
> {
>
> \center-column {
>
> \woodwind-diagram
>
> #'saxophone
>
> #'((cc . (one two three five))
>
>   (lh . ( T bes))
>
>   (rh . ()))
>
> }
>
> }
>
>
>
> fingeringGraph = \markup %\override  #'(graphical . #f)
>
> {
>
> \center-column {
>
> \woodwind-diagram
>
> #'saxophone
>
> #'((cc . (one two three five))
>
>   (lh . (T bes ))
>
>   (rh . ()))
>
> }
>
> }
>
>
>
> \score {
>
> {
>
>   <g' fis''> ^\fingering
>
>   r r
>
>   <g' fis''> ^\fingeringGraph
>
> }
>
> }
>
>
>
> I got what appears to match your desired output in Text mode, as well as
> the proper output in graphical mode (I think).
>
>
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]>
> *Date: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 9:18 PM
> *To: *Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>
> *Cc: *"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <
> [hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]>
> *Subject: *Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram
>
>
>
> This would be the desired output
>
>
>
> On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 22:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What is the desired output?
>
>
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> *From: *Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]>
> *Date: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 7:13 PM
> *To: *Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>
> *Cc: *"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <
> [hidden email]>, Valentin Villenave <[hidden email]>
> *Subject: *Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram
>
>
>
> Oh, don't worry, I've already edited the file (just took a look at
> Valentin's merge request to see what was changed).
>
> After fixing this a new issue came up: in text mode, the octave key is
> displayed as a misaligned circle, instead of a T letter.
>
> I paste the code below an attach the output.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> \version "2.20.0"
>
>
>
> fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
>
> \center-column {
>
> \woodwind-diagram
>
> #'saxophone
>
> #'((cc . (one two three five))
>
>   (lh . (T bes))
>
>   (rh . ()))
>
> }
>
> }
>
>
>
> \score {
>
> <g' fis''> ^\fingering
>
> }
>
>
>
> On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 20:46, Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Valentin,
>
> Thanks for the quick fix.  I was trying to fix it, but I'm not as fast as
> you.
>
> If you attach the proper copy of scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm to an
> email,  I can give Antonio instructions about how to get the file into the
> proper place on his MacOS.
>
> The instructions:
>
> Browse (using finder) to the folder containing LilyPond.app
> Right-click (or control-click) on LilyPond.app, and select "Show Contents"
> Click on Resources
> Click on Share
> Click on lilypond
> Click on 2.20.0
> Click on scm
> Drag the proper copy of display-woodwind-diagrams.scm into the scm/ folder.
>
> This procedure is necessary because I don't think we've ever had a version
> without this typo.
>
> HTH,
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> On 5/20/20, 5:42 PM, "Antonio Ortega Brook" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone. First of all I think maybe I misunderstood the instructions
> for bug reporting and I've opened an issue in GitLab before posting to this
> list and now I think that I might not be supposed to do that. I'm very
> sorry for the inconvenience.
> Anyway, I get the following error when trying to display key names in a
> saxophone diagram:
>
>
> /Applications/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm:1773:55:
> Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting list): #f
> Exited with return code 1.
>
> Example:
>
> \version "2.20.0"
>
> fingering = \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
> \center-column {
> \woodwind-diagram
> #'saxophone
> #'((cc . (one two four five six))
>   (lh . (b))
>   (rh . (ees)))
> }
> }
>
> \score {
> <a' aih''> ^\fingering
> }
>
> Attached is the expected result.
> Best regards
> --
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Antonio Ortega Brook
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Antonio Ortega Brook
>


--
Antonio Ortega Brook
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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Valentin Villenave-3
On 5/23/20, Antonio Ortega Brook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> @Carl: yes, that's exactly what I was looking for (although things may have
> changed a bit, now...), thank you very much. As far as I can tell,
> everything seems to be working as expected.

Great!  Carl, feel free to open a merge request or to push new commits
onto mine.

> About the regression test, I'm not sure of what it means (I'm not a "real
> programmer", just an amateur...) but I thought I could make a fingering
> chart or something like that and check that every possible fingering is
> correct in both modes with the help of a professional saxophonist. Please
> let me know if I could be of help in any other way.

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. These diagrams appear to have been
wrong for a decade and you’re the first one to realize that; not only
were they wrong but they even made LilyPond crash, which is very very
bad. Therefore we should have an exhaustive list of diagrams
somewhere: first to test them all and make sure there are no other
mistakes (as this discussion has proven, there are); then to make sure
that future changes to LilyPond’s internal source code don’t
accidentally break anything.

Mike (the colleague of mine who implemented the diagrams in the first
place, a long time ago) has never played any woodwind instrument, and
neither have I; so if you (or Torsten) know some musicians that can
help, please do!  (And by the way, there are very few "real
programmers" among LilyPond contributors and developers; I’m certainly
not one either, and neither was Mike when he wrote that stuff.  So,
anyone’s welcome to help us!)

Cheers,
-- V.

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AW: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Torsten Hämmerle
Hi Valentin,

 

I didn't have time to follow the SourceForge -> GitLab transition and so I'm currently trying to keep track.

I didn't even manage to post to nabble using nabble anymore... (???)

 

If you don't mind, I'll try to insert an one-line change into your merge request - it' s about the second textual diagram crash I know about:

When switching from graphical to textual representation, tin-whistle will also abort.

I know that this is rather pointless, as tin whistles don't have any special keys/holes, not even a thumb hole, but, nevertheless, LilyPond should not crash.

 

The tin whistle crash can be easily produced by just switching off graphical representation:

\markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {

  \woodwind-diagram

  #'tin-whistle % saxophone

  #'((cc . ()) (lh . ()) (rh . ()))

}

 

The cause is in

[...]/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm

 

(define (generate-tin-whistle-family-entry tin-whistle-name)

[...]

         (text-commands

[...]

                            ((stencils

                              . ,(make-central-column-hole-addresses

                                  CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-H-LIST))

 

where it should really be CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-LIST (without the additional "-H" in it)

 

 

 

Anyway, I think it a good idea to work on some historic shortcomings of the woodwind diagrams.

 

I don't play woodwind instruments myself, either, but some of my closest friends play clarinet and saxophone, representing a rather full range of these instruments.  And, thanks to Corona (long story), I happen to currently have all of these instruments sitting in my living room. 😊

 

As the original post was about saxophones, I'll stick to the saxophone family (for the time being).

 

Instruments at hand:

- Baritone Saxophone

- Tenor Saxophones (several)

- Alto Saxophones  (several)

- Soprano Saxophone

No bass saxophone or below, though (sorry), and the sopranino is several hundred kilometers away, no sopranissimo. No C melody.

 

As not all of us (and especially people programming all these woodwind diagrams) play or technically know all of these instruments, I'll just quickly outline the special sax situation, if you don't mind.



Saxophone fingering

 

Saxophones are transposing instruments and the layout of keys and thus the fingering is the independent of the type of saxophone:.

Same written note means same fingering.

 

That's why the LilyPond woodwind diagrams for soprano, alto and tenor saxophones just refer to one and the same plain 'saxophone  definition.

There's only one exception for the baritone saxophone: Many baritone saxophones have an additional key to extend the range down to low A (usually, Bb is the lowest written note on a saxophone).

 

Yesterday, I just took a side-by-side photograph of a baritone saxophone (Selmer Super Action 80, with low A key) and an alto (Selmer Mark VI, without low A key, of course) and marked the low A key (green) or the place where it would be (red). The black thumb rest can be used for orientation: The low A key is directly opposite the octave key, both surrounding the left hand thumb rest.

 

One reason why I attached the photo is that probably not too many people may ever have seen a low A key.

But the other, more important reason is that I'd prefer to have some suitable kind of graphical representation of this key (instead of just printing "lowA" or a circled "lowA" for low-aT.

 

Perhaps somebody has a nice design idea.  Unfortunately, most saxophone fingering charts (even for baritone sax) omit the low A extension.

 

Cheers,

Torsten

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AW: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Torsten Hämmerle
In reply to this post by Valentin Villenave-3
… and, of course, I forgot to attach the low A photograph…

Well, here it is.

 

Von: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Mai 2020 12:29
An: 'Valentin Villenave' <[hidden email]>; 'Antonio Ortega Brook' <[hidden email]>
Cc: 'Carl Sorensen' <[hidden email]>; '[hidden email]' <[hidden email]>
Betreff: AW: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

 

Hi Valentin,

 

I didn't have time to follow the SourceForge -> GitLab transition and so I'm currently trying to keep track.

I didn't even manage to post to nabble using nabble anymore... (???)

 

If you don't mind, I'll try to insert an one-line change into your merge request - it' s about the second textual diagram crash I know about:

When switching from graphical to textual representation, tin-whistle will also abort.

I know that this is rather pointless, as tin whistles don't have any special keys/holes, not even a thumb hole, but, nevertheless, LilyPond should not crash.

 

The tin whistle crash can be easily produced by just switching off graphical representation:

\markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {

  \woodwind-diagram

  #'tin-whistle % saxophone

  #'((cc . ()) (lh . ()) (rh . ()))

}

 

The cause is in

[...]/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm

 

(define (generate-tin-whistle-family-entry tin-whistle-name)

[...]

         (text-commands

[...]

                            ((stencils

                              . ,(make-central-column-hole-addresses

                                  CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-H-LIST))

 

where it should really be CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-LIST (without the additional "-H" in it)

 

 

 

Anyway, I think it a good idea to work on some historic shortcomings of the woodwind diagrams.

 

I don't play woodwind instruments myself, either, but some of my closest friends play clarinet and saxophone, representing a rather full range of these instruments.  And, thanks to Corona (long story), I happen to currently have all of these instruments sitting in my living room. 😊

 

As the original post was about saxophones, I'll stick to the saxophone family (for the time being).

 

Instruments at hand:

- Baritone Saxophone

- Tenor Saxophones (several)

- Alto Saxophones  (several)

- Soprano Saxophone

No bass saxophone or below, though (sorry), and the sopranino is several hundred kilometers away, no sopranissimo. No C melody.

 

As not all of us (and especially people programming all these woodwind diagrams) play or technically know all of these instruments, I'll just quickly outline the special sax situation, if you don't mind.

Saxophone fingering

 

Saxophones are transposing instruments and the layout of keys and thus the fingering is the independent of the type of saxophone:.

Same written note means same fingering.

 

That's why the LilyPond woodwind diagrams for soprano, alto and tenor saxophones just refer to one and the same plain 'saxophone  definition.

There's only one exception for the baritone saxophone: Many baritone saxophones have an additional key to extend the range down to low A (usually, Bb is the lowest written note on a saxophone).

 

Yesterday, I just took a side-by-side photograph of a baritone saxophone (Selmer Super Action 80, with low A key) and an alto (Selmer Mark VI, without low A key, of course) and marked the low A key (green) or the place where it would be (red). The black thumb rest can be used for orientation: The low A key is directly opposite the octave key, both surrounding the left hand thumb rest.

 

One reason why I attached the photo is that probably not too many people may ever have seen a low A key.

But the other, more important reason is that I'd prefer to have some suitable kind of graphical representation of this key (instead of just printing "lowA" or a circled "lowA" for low-aT.

 

Perhaps somebody has a nice design idea.  Unfortunately, most saxophone fingering charts (even for baritone sax) omit the low A extension.

 

Cheers,

Torsten


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Re: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram

Antonio Ortega Brook
Hi all,
I've tested every key in both modes and everything seems to be working more
or less as expected. No crashes (except for the issue with the low A key
that Torsten already pointed out). One thing I've noticed is that some key
names in textual mode might be misplaced; if you look at the following
example, the name of the key maybe should be more or less in the same
position than the key in the graphical version, according to what I've seen
in scores and charts, but I'll dig more into this and come back with more
details later.

\version "2.20.0"

\score {
{
r1 ^\markup %\override #'(graphical . #f)
{
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . ())
  (lh . ())
  (rh . (e)))
}
}
r1 ^\markup \override #'(graphical . #f)
{
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . ())
  (lh . ())
  (rh . (e)))
}
}
}
}

I've sent a chart with all the diagrams in both modes to two saxophone
players, along with some questions and I'm waiting for their answers. I've
also started to do some research and already found some interesting things:
one is that there is a high-G key in soprano saxophones only (I don't know
yet if it is present on all sopranos or just some of them) that is missing
in the LilyPond diagrams. The other is about key naming, which I outline
below:
In Marcus Weiss' book "The techniques of saxophone playing" (Bärenreiter
2010) some of the right hand keys (the "trill keys") are named "Tc", "Ta"
and "Tf" and some of the left and right hand keys (the "high keys") are
named "c1", "c2", "c3", "c4", "c5" and "c6" (soprano only), instead of
having note names. The B flat key is named "p". The front-f key is referred
to as "high F alternate key" and represented with an x cross. The octave
key is represented with an "8". The central column keys are represented
with numbers 1 to 6 and the rest of the keys have note names. This is the
same naming convention that is found in Daniel Kientzy's "Les sons
multiples aux saxophones" (Salabert editions 1982) and Jean-Marie Londeix's
"Hello! Mr. Sax" (Editions Musicales Alphonse Leduc 1989).
Here are the key names in Lilypond and their equivalents in Weiss:
cc
one:  1 = B key
two:     2 = A key
three:  3 = G key
four:  4 = F key
five:  5 = E key
six:  6 = D key
lh
low-a:  A = low A key (baritone only)
T:  8 = octave key
ees:  c2 = high Eb key
d:  c1 = high D key
f:  c4 = high F key
front-f:      x = high F alternate key
bes:  p = Bb key
gis:  G# = G# key
cis:  C# = C# key
b:  B = low B key
low-bes:   Bb = low Bb key
rh
e:  c3 = high E key
c:  Tc = C trill key
bes:  Ta = A trill key
high-fis:     c5 = high F# key
(missing):  c6 = high G key (soprano only)
fis:  Tf = F# trill key
ees:  Eb = Eb key
low-c:  C or 7 = C key

You can find Marcus Weiss' diagram and key descriptions here
https://www.stretta-music.com/media/images/951/489951_detail-04.jpg
and here
https://www.stretta-music.com/media/images/951/489951_detail-05.jpg

Some note on the books I've looked into: Londeix's one is an average book
on saxophone technichques. It is fairly known, I think, among saxophonists.
Kientzy's book was the first major work on saxophone multiphonics. It is
well known among saxophonists specialized in classical contemporary
music and it is mentioned in almost every academic work on multiphonics.
Weiss' book (much more recent) presents an in-depth study on contemporary
techniques, including microtone scales, and a large catalog of
multiphonics. The player who recommended it to me regarded it as "the
ultimate resource on contemporary techniques for saxophone".
Weiss' multiphonics catalogue can be found online here
https://www.baerenreiter.com/materialien/weiss_netti/saxophon/multiphonics.html
It is a great place to find diagrams of non-trivial fingerings (there are
more than 100 for soprano to baritone saxophones).

Lastly, in addition to Torsten words on the saxophone situation, I'd like
to mention that fingering diagrams are very important in classical
contemporary music scores, because they are needed in the notation of many
of the so called "extended techniques", most notably multiphonics.
Multiphonics are complex sounds with more than one pitch (some of them
sound like chords) that can be produced using special fingerings. In a
score, whenever you see something that looks like a chord there's a
fingering diagram above. This apply not only to saxophones but woodwind
instruments in general.

That's all for today...
Cheers

Antonio


On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 07:31, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> … and, of course, I forgot to attach the low A photograph…
>
> Well, here it is.
>
>
>
> *Von:* [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 23. Mai 2020 12:29
> *An:* 'Valentin Villenave' <[hidden email]>; 'Antonio Ortega
> Brook' <[hidden email]>
> *Cc:* 'Carl Sorensen' <[hidden email]>; '[hidden email]' <
> [hidden email]>
> *Betreff:* AW: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram
>
>
>
> Hi Valentin,
>
>
>
> I didn't have time to follow the SourceForge -> GitLab transition and so
> I'm currently trying to keep track.
>
> I didn't even manage to post to nabble using nabble anymore... (???)
>
>
>
> If you don't mind, I'll try to insert an one-line change into your merge
> request - it' s about the second textual diagram crash I know about:
>
> When switching from graphical to textual representation, tin-whistle will
> also abort.
>
> I know that this is rather pointless, as tin whistles don't have any
> special keys/holes, not even a thumb hole, but, nevertheless, LilyPond
> should not crash.
>
>
>
> The tin whistle crash can be easily produced by just switching off
> graphical representation:
>
> \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
>
>   \woodwind-diagram
>
>   #'tin-whistle % saxophone
>
>   #'((cc . ()) (lh . ()) (rh . ()))
>
> }
>
>
>
> The cause is in
>
> [...]/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm
>
>
>
> (define (generate-tin-whistle-family-entry tin-whistle-name)
>
> [...]
>
>          (text-commands
>
> [...]
>
>                             ((stencils
>
>                               . ,(make-central-column-hole-addresses
>
>                                   CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-H-LIST))
>
>
>
> where it should really be CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-LIST (without the additional
> "-H" in it)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, I think it a good idea to work on some historic shortcomings of
> the woodwind diagrams.
>
>
>
> I don't play woodwind instruments myself, either, but some of my closest
> friends play clarinet and saxophone, representing a rather full range of
> these instruments.  And, thanks to Corona (long story), I happen to
> currently have all of these instruments sitting in my living room. 😊
>
>
>
> As the original post was about saxophones, I'll stick to the saxophone
> family (for the time being).
>
>
>
> Instruments at hand:
>
> - Baritone Saxophone
>
> - Tenor Saxophones (several)
>
> - Alto Saxophones  (several)
>
> - Soprano Saxophone
>
> No bass saxophone or below, though (sorry), and the sopranino is several
> hundred kilometers away, no sopranissimo. No C melody.
>
>
>
> As not all of us (and especially people programming all these woodwind
> diagrams) play or technically know all of these instruments, I'll just
> quickly outline the special sax situation, if you don't mind.
>
> Saxophone fingering
>
>
>
> Saxophones are transposing instruments and the layout of keys and thus the
> fingering is the independent of the type of saxophone:.
>
> Same written note means same fingering.
>
>
>
> That's why the LilyPond woodwind diagrams for soprano, alto and tenor
> saxophones just refer to one and the same plain 'saxophone  definition.
>
> There's only one exception for the baritone saxophone: Many baritone
> saxophones have an additional key to extend the range down to low A
> (usually, Bb is the lowest written note on a saxophone).
>
>
>
> Yesterday, I just took a side-by-side photograph of a baritone saxophone
> (Selmer Super Action 80, with low A key) and an alto (Selmer Mark VI,
> without low A key, of course) and marked the low A key (green) or the place
> where it would be (red). The black thumb rest can be used for orientation:
> The low A key is directly opposite the octave key, both surrounding the
> left hand thumb rest.
>
>
>
> One reason why I attached the photo is that probably not too many people
> may ever have seen a low A key.
>
> But the other, more important reason is that I'd prefer to have some
> suitable kind of graphical representation of this key (instead of just
> printing "lowA" or a circled "lowA" for low-aT.
>
>
>
> Perhaps somebody has a nice design idea.  Unfortunately, most saxophone
> fingering charts (even for baritone sax) omit the low A extension.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Torsten
>


--
Antonio Ortega Brook
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bug-lilypond mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond