How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

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How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Robert Blackstone-2
Dear all,

I need some help with a problem that I have not been able to solve up till now.
The composer, long dead, some of  whose piano music I am reengraving, wants me to write this (see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/512573/FileChute/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-23%20at%2011.19.08%20.zip).

In this particular composition this figure occurs many times in slightly different forms but the main problematic element for me is the extra large marcato mark halfway between two beamed notes, above the beam. The best result I have been able to produce can be seen here (ignore the fact that there should have been a half note at the position of the 8.-note - that does not give a  problem)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\new Staff  {
       \clef bass
    \time 4/4   
   
          <<  { \tuplet 33/32 {\omit TupletNumber \override TupletBracket.bracket-visibility = ##f s32 \set fontSize = #4.5 \once \hideNotes g'1^^ } } \\ {\slurUp \unset fontSize \stemUp c'16 [es'8.] s2.}   >> 
          }

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Somehow LilyPond insists that the beam remains on top, or that the marcato mark remains below the beam. 

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Robert Blackstone

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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Andrew Bernard
Hi Robert,

May I ask who the composer is? It is unusual notation. In fact, one wonders what it means precisely.

Andrew


On 23 June 2017 at 20:00, Robert Blackstone <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear all,

I need some help with a problem that I have not been able to solve up till now.
The composer, long dead, some of  whose piano music I am reengraving, wants me to write this (see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/512573/FileChute/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-23%20at%2011.19.08%20.zip).


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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Andrew Bernard
In reply to this post by Robert Blackstone-2
Hi Robert,

Any use?

\version "2.19.61"

\new Staff  {
  \clef bass
  \time 4/4

  \stemUp
  \set fontSize = #4.5
  \once \override Script.X-offset = #6
  c'16^^ [es'8.] s2.
}

You can fiddle Y-offset also.

As to how to beam across to a minim, that is tricky indeed, if you are going to go the whole hog with this score.


Andrew

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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Robert Blackstone-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Bernard
Hi Andrew,

The composer is Dirk Schäfer (1873 - 1931), in his time famous, now large forgotten. This is from No 5 of his "Interludes Op. 17". You can see and hear it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycIdo0SK0GQ , starting at 9:13.
I think you will recognize that the notation, unusual as it may be, is very effective.
Reengraving it with LilyPond is not a walkover. In some places it has 8 voices.

Robert

On 23 Jun 2017, at 12:09 , Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Robert,

May I ask who the composer is? It is unusual notation. In fact, one wonders what it means precisely.

Andrew


On 23 June 2017 at 20:00, Robert Blackstone <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear all,

I need some help with a problem that I have not been able to solve up till now.
The composer, long dead, some of  whose piano music I am reengraving, wants me to write this (see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/512573/FileChute/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-23%20at%2011.19.08%20.zip).



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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Andrew Bernard


Am 23. Juni 2017 12:09:21 MESZ schrieb Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]>:
>Hi Robert,
>
>May I ask who the composer is? It is unusual notation. In fact, one
>wonders
>what it means precisely.

I've seen similar notation with Liszt, indicating some special kind of "pressure" on a group of notes.

OTOH Robert, are you sure it is not simply an engraving error?

Urs

>
>Andrew
>
>
>On 23 June 2017 at 20:00, Robert Blackstone
><[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I need some help with a problem that I have not been able to solve up
>till
>> now.
>> The composer, long dead, some of  whose piano music I am reengraving,
>> wants me to write this (see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/
>> 512573/FileChute/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-23%20at%2011.19.08%20.zip).
>>
>>

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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Mark Knoop-4
In reply to this post by Andrew Bernard
At 20:19 on 23 Jun 2017, Andrew Bernard wrote:

>Hi Robert,
>
>Any use?
>
>\version "2.19.61"
>
>\new Staff  {
>  \clef bass
>  \time 4/4
>
>  \stemUp
>  \set fontSize = #4.5
>  \once \override Script.X-offset = #6
>  c'16^^ [es'8.] s2.
>}
>
>You can fiddle Y-offset also.
>
>As to how to beam across to a minim, that is tricky indeed, if you are
>going to go the whole hog with this score.

Beaming to a minim, just add:

\once \override NoteHead.duration-log = #1

--
Mark Knoop

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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Robert Blackstone-2
In reply to this post by Urs Liska
Hi Urs,
Am I sure it is not simply an engraving error?
I am never sure of anything,  but since in this piece of 86 bars it occurs 31 times I think it is unlikely that it is an engraving error.  

Best regards,
Robert

On 23 Jun 2017, at 12:35 , Urs Liska <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Am 23. Juni 2017 12:09:21 MESZ schrieb Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> May I ask who the composer is? It is unusual notation. In fact, one
>> wonders
>> what it means precisely.
>
> I've seen similar notation with Liszt, indicating some special kind of "pressure" on a group of notes.
>
> OTOH Robert, are you sure it is not simply an engraving error?
>
> Urs
>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> On 23 June 2017 at 20:00, Robert Blackstone
>> <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I need some help with a problem that I have not been able to solve up
>> till
>>> now.
>>> The composer, long dead, some of  whose piano music I am reengraving,
>>> wants me to write this (see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/
>>> 512573/FileChute/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-23%20at%2011.19.08%20.zip).
>>>
>>>


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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Malte Meyn-3
In reply to this post by Robert Blackstone-2


Am 23.06.2017 um 12:00 schrieb Robert Blackstone:
>
> In this particular composition this figure occurs many times in slightly different forms but the main problematic element for me is the extra large marcato mark halfway between two beamed notes, above the beam. The best result I have been able to produce can be seen here (ignore the fact that there should have been a half note at the position of the 8.-note - that does not give a  problem)

How about reusing the tuplet number for this accent?

\version "2.19.61"

{
   \stemUp
   \tweak text \markup \huge \musicglyph #"scripts.umarcato"
   \tuplet 3/8 {
     a''16 \tweak duration-log 1 c'''8
   }
   c'''2
}

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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Robert Blackstone-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Bernard
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your advice.
Sadly enough it does not work for me since I do not want the notes to be in fontSize = #4.5, only the marcato mark. For that reason I attached the marcato mark to a hidden note in a separate voice. When I introduce  the \override Script.X-offset = #6 and an Y-offset in my MWE the marcato mark sits again, or still, underneath the beam.

If I could enlarge and shift just the marcato mark and leave the notes at their default size and position things would be OK.

Robert


On 23 Jun 2017, at 12:19 , Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> Any use?
>
> \version "2.19.61"
>
> \new Staff  {
>   \clef bass
>   \time 4/4
>
>   \stemUp
>   \set fontSize = #4.5
>   \once \override Script.X-offset = #6
>   c'16^^ [es'8.] s2.
> }
>
> You can fiddle Y-offset also.
>
> As to how to beam across to a minim, that is tricky indeed, if you are going to go the whole hog with this score.
>
>
> Andrew


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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Urs Liska


Am 23. Juni 2017 13:26:07 MESZ schrieb Robert Blackstone <[hidden email]>:

>Hi Andrew,
>
>Thanks for your advice.
>Sadly enough it does not work for me since I do not want the notes to
>be in fontSize = #4.5, only the marcato mark. For that reason I
>attached the marcato mark to a hidden note in a separate voice. When I
>introduce  the \override Script.X-offset = #6 and an Y-offset in my MWE
>the marcato mark sits again, or still, underneath the beam.
>
>If I could enlarge and shift just the marcato mark and leave the notes
>at their default size and position things would be OK.

You can override the font size of Script and use extra-offset to really manually offset the marcato.

Urs

>
>Robert
>
>
>On 23 Jun 2017, at 12:19 , Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> Any use?
>>
>> \version "2.19.61"
>>
>> \new Staff  {
>>   \clef bass
>>   \time 4/4
>>
>>   \stemUp
>>   \set fontSize = #4.5
>>   \once \override Script.X-offset = #6
>>   c'16^^ [es'8.] s2.
>> }
>>
>> You can fiddle Y-offset also.
>>
>> As to how to beam across to a minim, that is tricky indeed, if you
>are going to go the whole hog with this score.
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>lilypond-user mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Robert Blackstone-2
In reply to this post by Malte Meyn-3
Hi Malte,

Perfect! Two solutions in one example.

Many thanks.

Robert



On 23 Jun 2017, at 13:08 , Malte Meyn <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Am 23.06.2017 um 12:00 schrieb Robert Blackstone:
>> In this particular composition this figure occurs many times in slightly different forms but the main problematic element for me is the extra large marcato mark halfway between two beamed notes, above the beam. The best result I have been able to produce can be seen here (ignore the fact that there should have been a half note at the position of the 8.-note - that does not give a  problem)
>
> How about reusing the tuplet number for this accent?
>
> \version "2.19.61"
>
> {
>  \stemUp
>  \tweak text \markup \huge \musicglyph #"scripts.umarcato"
>  \tuplet 3/8 {
>    a''16 \tweak duration-log 1 c'''8
>  }
>  c'''2
> }
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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Re: How to change the position of an expressive mark relative to a beam in another voice

Robert Blackstone-2
In reply to this post by Malte Meyn-3
Hi Malte,
I resend this reply because my previous one did not contain your message. My message is the same:

Perfect! Two solutions in one example.

Many thanks.

Robert

On 23 Jun 2017, at 13:08 , Malte Meyn <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Am 23.06.2017 um 12:00 schrieb Robert Blackstone:
>> In this particular composition this figure occurs many times in slightly different forms but the main problematic element for me is the extra large marcato mark halfway between two beamed notes, above the beam. The best result I have been able to produce can be seen here (ignore the fact that there should have been a half note at the position of the 8.-note - that does not give a  problem)
>
> How about reusing the tuplet number for this accent?
>
> \version "2.19.61"
>
> {
>  \stemUp
>  \tweak text \markup \huge \musicglyph #"scripts.umarcato"
>  \tuplet 3/8 {
>    a''16 \tweak duration-log 1 c'''8
>  }
>  c'''2
> }
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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