HELP: Editor for Blind People

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HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
This post was updated on .
Hi all! I'm trying to help one of my students who is blind. He will be soon taking courses where he's going to be asked to produce arrangements in the form of printed scores.

My problem is that I can't find the right editor for him. I need help to choose the most appropriate one. Here's what I need to sort out:

1. He will need to be able to navigate quickly between the documents, the log and the midi player
2. The log has to be readable (in Frescobaldi you can't place a cursor in the log and navigate through it as in a text document)
3. The editor must have the ability to jump directly to the line where an error is located, and from there to the next error, if there is more than one.

I have tried with Frescobaldi and Elysium but none seems a good choice. Emacs and Vim are possible candidates but there's little information about them. Also, I would need soom help on how to install any of them (they seem pretty complicated to set up).

I would appreciate very much any help!

Antonio
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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

m.tarenskeen


On Fri, 19 Sep 2014, Antonio Gervasoni wrote:

> Emacs and Vim are possible candidates but there's little information about
> them.

"there's little information" ? You can't be serious.

Google "emacs editor" - 860000 results
Google "vim editor" - 565000 results

I am sure there are some LilyPond users also who can help answering your
question.

--

MT


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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Hwaen Ch'uqi
In reply to this post by Antonio Gervasoni
Greetings Antonio,

Every necessity which you presented is easily answered with emacspeak,
the aural interface to emacs. There is plenty of online documentation
for using emacs/emacspeak, but it is true that setting up emacspeak
can be tricky. If you are using ubuntu or, I believe, some other linux
distributions, the installation of emacspeak and orca are easily
automated with a couple of softwares which you may urchase for a very
small fee at http://oralux.org/.

I hope this helps.

Hwaen Ch'uqi


On 9/19/14, Antonio Gervasoni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all! I'm trying to help one of my students who is blind. He will be soon
> taking courses where he's going to be asked to produce arrangements in the
> form of printed scores.
>
> My problem is that I can't find the right editor for him. I need help to
> choose the most appropriate one. Here's what I need to sort out:
>
> 1. He will need to be able to navigate quickly between the documents, the
> log and the midi player
> 2. The log has to be readable (in Frescobaldi you can't place a cursor in
> the log and navigate through it as in a text document)
> 3. The editor must have the ability to jump directly to the line where an
> error is located, and from there to the next error, if there is more than
> one.
>
> I have tried with Frescobaldi and Elysium but none seems a good choice.
> Emacs and Vim are possible candidates but there's little information about
> them. Also, I would need soom help on how to install any of them (they seem
> pretty complicated to set up
>
> I would appreciate very much any help!
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/HELP-Editor-for-Blind-People-tp166632.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>

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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
In reply to this post by m.tarenskeen
Well, first, 860000 results in Google or any other browser doesn't mean 860000 meaningful results. I would be surprised if real helpful information could be found in more than just the first 3 or 4 pages. On the other hand, I was referring to emacs and vim in relation to Lilypond. Of course there's a lot of information about them just as editors. In any case, I would be willing to accept that I have just been unable to find useful information about their usage with Lilypond (mea culpa) but, honestly, I was expecting a more positive feedback, something about the subject of my post, not a rebuke on my poor capabilities to make a search on the web. Thanks, anyway.
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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
In reply to this post by Hwaen Ch'uqi
Hi Hwaen!

Actually, it depends on what OS my student uses, and I'm sure it's not Linux. He had a Windows computer a few years ago but I believe he has switched to Mac. In any case, he already has a program that reads everything on the screen for him (Mac comes with one built-in). What I'm actually looking for is an editor that will let him to easily switch from the document to the log and to the midi player (because he needs the aural feedback). The reading of the information on the screen has already been solved.

Thank you!

Antonio
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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Jaime Oliver La Rosa
In reply to this post by Antonio Gervasoni
Hola Antonio,

You should be able to compile and read in latex, in Mac I think it's called texshop.

J

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 19, 2014, at 5:58 PM, Antonio Gervasoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi all! I'm trying to help one of my students who is blind. He will be soon
> taking courses where he's going to be asked to produce arrangements in the
> form of printed scores.
>
> My problem is that I can't find the right editor for him. I need help to
> choose the most appropriate one. Here's what I need to sort out:
>
> 1. He will need to be able to navigate quickly between the documents, the
> log and the midi player
> 2. The log has to be readable (in Frescobaldi you can't place a cursor in
> the log and navigate through it as in a text document)
> 3. The editor must have the ability to jump directly to the line where an
> error is located, and from there to the next error, if there is more than
> one.
>
> I have tried with Frescobaldi and Elysium but none seems a good choice.
> Emacs and Vim are possible candidates but there's little information about
> them. Also, I would need soom help on how to install any of them (they seem
> pretty complicated to set up
>
> I would appreciate very much any help!
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/HELP-Editor-for-Blind-People-tp166632.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
Thank you Jaime!!! I'll look into that! :-)

Antonio
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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
Well, I tried TexShop. I already had it installed so it was just a matter of downloading and installing the Lilypond engines created by Nicola Vitacolonna. It was very easy and the engines work perfectly. Unfortunately, I have the same trouble as with Frescobaldi: the log is unreadable. In other words, I can't place a cursor in the log and follow it as I would do with any other type of text. Also, TexShop was unable to take me to the errors and I couldn't find any way to assign shortcuts to things like selecting the engine.
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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

pkx166h
In reply to this post by Antonio Gervasoni
Antonio,

On 20/09/14 00:29, [hidden email] wrote:

> Subject:
> HELP: Editor for Blind People
> From:
> Antonio Gervasoni <[hidden email]>
> Date:
> 19/09/14 22:58
>
> To:
> [hidden email]
>
>
> Hi all! I'm trying to help one of my students who is blind. He will be soon
> taking courses where he's going to be asked to produce arrangements in the
> form of printed scores.
>
> My problem is that I can't find the right editor for him. I need help to
> choose the most appropriate one. Here's what I need to sort out:
>
> 1. He will need to be able to navigate quickly between the documents, the
> log and the midi player
> 2. The log has to be readable (in Frescobaldi you can't place a cursor in
> the log and navigate through it as in a text document)
> 3. The editor must have the ability to jump directly to the line where an
> error is located, and from there to the next error, if there is more than
> one.
>
> I have tried with Frescobaldi and Elysium but none seems a good choice.
> Emacs and Vim are possible candidates but there's little information about
> them. Also, I would need soom help on how to install any of them (they seem
> pretty complicated to set up
>
> I would appreciate very much any help!
>
> Antonio

What I would also encourage you to do is to send an email to Wilbert or
add your suggestions to Frescobaldi's own tracker to maybe say why it
isn't a good choice.

https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/issues

As an all-in-one editor for LilyPond it really is nice (and
cross-platform) and Wilbert is very responsive.

Is there any particular reason that your student cannot 'keep it simple'
and use a text editor or lilypad that comes with a mac (which is very
simple but does the job)?

You would have 3 windows (editor, log and Preview.app for output) but I
am not sure (not being blind) how much more cumbersome that is that an
all in one IDE that has multiple windows.

On Windows I just use notepad++

James


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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
> What I would also encourage you to do is to send an email to Wilbert or
> add your suggestions to Frescobaldi's own tracker to maybe say why it
> isn't a good choice.

Great idea! I will do that!
I do use Frescobaldi and I agree, it's really nice! The problem with it is that the log cannot be read, i.e. you can't "focus" on the log as a separate window (or panel) and go line by line with a cursor. As a result, VoiceOver can't read the contents of the log. Clicking on the log (something impossible for him) makes VoiceOver say "you are currently on unknown".

> Is there any particular reason that your student cannot 'keep it simple'
> and use a text editor or lilypad that comes with a mac (which is very
> simple but does the job)?

Yes, I thought of that too. In fact, just the Lilypond app would be enough. No need for a separate text editor. However, I must say it IS cumbersome. I have tried this approach with him before. He has to go constantly from one window to another and then browse for the MIDI file every time he wants to play it. I was just hoping there would be some editor which could make things easier for him. Also, in order to check if there was any error he has to read the log completely after every compilation (sometimes files can be compiled even with errors). A feature to take him directly to the exact place where the error is located would be also very nice. Otherwise, he would have to look for it manually. (For some strange reason, Frescobaldi doesn't take you to the line where the error is located but to the following line instead... on a Mac, at least).

Antonio
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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Jacques Menu Muzhic
Hello Antonio,

BBEdit and TextWrangler have great power at handling workflows, maybe you could ask them what they can do for the problem you’re facing:

        http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/comparison.html

JM

Am 20 sept. 2014 um 07:47 schrieb Antonio Gervasoni <[hidden email]>:

>> What I would also encourage you to do is to send an email to Wilbert or
>> add your suggestions to Frescobaldi's own tracker to maybe say why it
>> isn't a good choice.
>
> Great idea! I will do that!
> I do use Frescobaldi and I agree, it's really nice! The problem with it is
> that the log cannot be read, i.e. you can't "focus" on the log as a separate
> window (or panel) and go line by line with a cursor. As a result, VoiceOver
> can't read the contents of the log. Clicking on the log (something
> impossible for him) makes VoiceOver say "you are currently on unknown".
>
>> Is there any particular reason that your student cannot 'keep it simple'
>> and use a text editor or lilypad that comes with a mac (which is very
>> simple but does the job)?
>
> Yes, I thought of that too. In fact, just the Lilypond app would be enough.
> No need for a separate text editor. However, I must say it IS cumbersome. I
> have tried this approach with him before. He has to go constantly from one
> window to another and then browse for the MIDI file every time he wants to
> play it. I was just hoping there would be some editor which could make
> things easier for him. Also, in order to check if there was any error he has
> to read the log completely after every compilation (sometimes files can be
> compiled even with errors). A feature to take him directly to the exact
> place where the error is located would be also very nice. Otherwise, he
> would have to look for it manually. (For some strange reason, Frescobaldi
> doesn't take you to the line where the error is located but to the following
> line instead... on a Mac, at least).
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/HELP-Editor-for-Blind-People-tp166632p166647.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Hwaen Ch'uqi
Greetings Antonio,

Please forgive me for beating what is apparently a dead horse, but as
I said before, emacs/emacspeak provides ALL the functionality which
you need for LilyPond. And since your friend is using a mac, these
programs should be easily available for him - though I do not have
experience with mac. The beauty of emacs is that it allows you to have
access to practically the entire desktop without ever leaving emacs.
For example, you  can call up a shell buffer and there not only
compile a LilyPond file, but you can also read the output, including
the error messages. Once you know the line number where an error is
located, you can - with a single keystroke - return to the LilyPond
code and - again, with a couple of keystrokes - jump to that line.
With another command, you can call a buffer which gives you access to
any directory tree, but by default you will be placed in your current
directory, which is where the generated midi output will be located.
Once you have arrowed to the midi file, you can call a command so as
to listen to it. With another command, you can have access to all the
texinfo manuals registered on your system, including those for
LilyPond. There are many other benefits to the emacs/emacspeak
solution, but best of all, LilyPond comes with emacs support. What
this means for your friend is that he will get immediate feedback, for
example, on what his closing brace is actually closing. Emacspeak does
have a user group, and there you may get better instruction on how to
install on mac.

I hope this helps, and do not worry: I will not mention this again on
this post. Only it troubled me to see the same problems discussed when
a solution, though perhaps challenging in the beginning to set up, is
very simple indeed.

Hwaen Ch'uqi


On 9/20/14, Jacques Menu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Antonio,
>
> BBEdit and TextWrangler have great power at handling workflows, maybe you
> could ask them what they can do for the problem you're facing:
>
> http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/comparison.html
>
> JM
>
> Am 20 sept. 2014 um 07:47 schrieb Antonio Gervasoni <[hidden email]>:
>
>>> What I would also encourage you to do is to send an email to Wilbert or
>>> add your suggestions to Frescobaldi's own tracker to maybe say why it
>>> isn't a good choice.
>>
>> Great idea! I will do that!
>> I do use Frescobaldi and I agree, it's really nice! The problem with it
>> is
>> that the log cannot be read, i.e. you can't "focus" on the log as a
>> separate
>> window (or panel) and go line by line with a cursor. As a result,
>> VoiceOver
>> can't read the contents of the log. Clicking on the log (something
>> impossible for him) makes VoiceOver say "you are currently on unknown".
>>
>>> Is there any particular reason that your student cannot 'keep it simple'
>>>
>>> and use a text editor or lilypad that comes with a mac (which is very
>>> simple but does the job)?
>>
>> Yes, I thought of that too. In fact, just the Lilypond app would be
>> enough.
>> No need for a separate text editor. However, I must say it IS cumbersome.
>> I
>> have tried this approach with him before. He has to go constantly from
>> one
>> window to another and then browse for the MIDI file every time he wants
>> to
>> play it. I was just hoping there would be some editor which could make
>> things easier for him. Also, in order to check if there was any error he
>> has
>> to read the log completely after every compilation (sometimes files can
>> be
>> compiled even with errors). A feature to take him directly to the exact
>> place where the error is located would be also very nice. Otherwise, he
>> would have to look for it manually. (For some strange reason, Frescobaldi
>> doesn't take you to the line where the error is located but to the
>> following
>> line instead... on a Mac, at least).
>>
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/HELP-Editor-for-Blind-People-tp166632p166647.html
>> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>

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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
Thank you so much Hwaen! That is precisely the information I needed. Now I can see why Emacs is indeed the best solution. Thank you for taking the time to write that description. I'm already reading the manual.

Now I have to figure out how to set up Lilypond for Emacs on a Mac. Is there anyone on this forum who has done this successfully?

I was able to find this but there's no info about when it was written or if it applies to a Mac.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Antonio
P.S.: no need to feel bad for "beating the dead horse"..... I'm really glad you did! LOL Thanks!
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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Hwaen Ch'uqi
Greetings Antonio,

I have seen that link before which you cited and found the first part
of it especially useful. Have you seen this thread from the mailing
list?

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-05/msg00170.html

I would say that only the first few entries are relevant to your
question. Also, the actual page on the LilyPond website where you can
download the version for mac should have clear instructions on how to
install it. Unfortunately, I can't seem to access the site at the
moment.

Hwaen Ch'uqi

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Re: HELP: Editor for Blind People

Antonio Gervasoni
Hi Hwaen!

Yes, I also found that thread but, although it starts about Emacs the discussion then moves to installing Frescobaldi.

I've also read the instructions at the Lilypond website. It only says Emacs has a lilypond-mode and then gives a few instructions on how to install it if it's not already installed on my platform but to me they are absolutely incomprehensible. I'm not a programmer.

Antonio
P.S.: the Lilypond website was unreachable yesterday