# Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

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## Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 Hi all, it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right incantation. I would like to force some space between the first group in the right hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand. From the manual I found         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10 looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52). Any suggestion would be welcome. Urs -- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.orghttp://lilypondblog.org_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user compound-slur-example-ravel-ondine-62.png (21K) Download Attachment
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 Hi Urs,No solution from me, but I just feel compelled to mention that this is one of my BIG issues with lilypond that I cannot seem to control - adjusting fine spacing like this in my scores is never successful. If there is a way to do it, hopefully somebody will let us know. If not, this would be a hugely desirable enhancement. I also have issues with grace note spacing becoming uneven when used in the context of cross staff beaming, and compounding that with the use of dodecaphonic accidentals makes lilypond produce very ugly output. It's about my only criticism of the entire marvellous application.Andrew _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 How about the new spacing section?http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-sectionHTH,Pierre2017-01-03 13:53 GMT+01:00 Andrew Bernard :Hi Urs,No solution from me, but I just feel compelled to mention that this is one of my BIG issues with lilypond that I cannot seem to control - adjusting fine spacing like this in my scores is never successful. If there is a way to do it, hopefully somebody will let us know. If not, this would be a hugely desirable enhancement. I also have issues with grace note spacing becoming uneven when used in the context of cross staff beaming, and compounding that with the use of dodecaphonic accidentals makes lilypond produce very ugly output. It's about my only criticism of the entire marvellous application.Andrew _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Urs Liska On 03-01-17 13:45, Urs Liska wrote: > Hi all, > > it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right > incantation. > > I would like to force some space between the first group in the right > hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to > squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand. > > From the manual I found > >         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10 > > looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space > between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it > with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52). > > Any suggestion would be welcome. > > Urs > > Hacky: adding s32 (or whatever) as the first note of the grace group works. Of course this is only because it is within a grace, but otherwise force-hshift might help? Rutger _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Schneidy Schneidy wrote How about the new spacing section? http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-sectionHTH, Pierre Yes! This indeed. I love the \newSpacingSection command it's a lifesaver! So happy this was added to LilyPond. composer | sound designer | asmr artist LilyPond video tutorials: http://bit.ly/LearnLilyPond
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Schneidy On 2017-01-03 13:56, Pierre Perol-Schneider wrote: > How about the new spacing section? > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-sectionSounds like the most proper solution, perhaps with adjustments of shortest-duration-space. For dirty one-shot tweaks though, note-attached dummy markups with \textLengthOn will also work...   { a b \once \textLengthOn c_\markup { \hspace #10 \null } d e f g } HTH, Alexander _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Schneidy Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider: How about the new spacing section? http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such. Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the first \newSpacingSection. Thanks anyway Urs HTH, Pierre 2017-01-03 13:53 GMT+01:00 Andrew Bernard : Hi Urs, No solution from me, but I just feel compelled to mention that this is one of my BIG issues with lilypond that I cannot seem to control - adjusting fine spacing like this in my scores is never successful. If there is a way to do it, hopefully somebody will let us know. If not, this would be a hugely desirable enhancement. I also have issues with grace note spacing becoming uneven when used in the context of cross staff beaming, and compounding that with the use of dodecaphonic accidentals makes lilypond produce very ugly output. It's about my only criticism of the entire marvellous application. Andrew _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.org http://lilypondblog.org _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user compound-slur-example-ravel-ondine-62.png (22K) Download Attachment
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Rutger Hofman Am 03.01.2017 um 14:06 schrieb Rutger Hofman: > On 03-01-17 13:45, Urs Liska wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right >> incantation. >> >> I would like to force some space between the first group in the right >> hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to >> squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand. >> >> From the manual I found >> >>         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10 >> >> looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space >> between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it >> with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52). >> >> Any suggestion would be welcome. >> >> Urs >> >> > > Hacky: adding s32 (or whatever) as the first note of the grace group > works. Of course this is only because it is within a grace, but > otherwise force-hshift might help? Hey, this is cool. Pretty unsemantic hack but does actually work in this context. force-hshift usually doesn't help in cases like this (I think) because it only shifts different voices against each other. So if no second voice is present it just doesn't have any effect. Urs > > Rutger > > > _______________________________________________ > lilypond-user mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user-- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.orghttp://lilypondblog.org_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Urs Liska 2017-01-03 14:12 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska <[hidden email]>: > > > Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider: > > How about the new spacing section? > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section> > > Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force > some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the > individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such. > > Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace > notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but > I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the > middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the > first \newSpacingSection. > > Thanks anyway > Urs I often use \once \override Score.NoteColumn.X-offset = #10 Cheers,   Harm _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Schneidy Hi Pierre,I use proportional notation and the new spacing section is never happy when combined with that, it appears.Oftimes I just wish I could tell lilypond to stop being so smart and do note spacing how I want it, regardless of whether it is 'correct' or not. Horror of horrors, I would even like to be able to specify point by point spacing in linear units like ems! [As you can see, a hopeless case am I!]Andrew _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2 Am 03.01.2017 um 14:16 schrieb Thomas Morley: > 2017-01-03 14:12 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska <[hidden email]>: >> >> Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider: >> >> How about the new spacing section? >> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section>> >> >> Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force >> some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the >> individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such. >> >> Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace >> notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but >> I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the >> middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the >> first \newSpacingSection. >> >> Thanks anyway >> Urs > > I often use > \once \override Score.NoteColumn.X-offset = #10 Thank you, that was it. Controllable and basically clear: I force LilyPond to ignore its own decision and tell it what to do instead. Urs PS: Andrew, I have the impression that could also be good for you > > Cheers, >   Harm -- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.orghttp://lilypondblog.org_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Urs Liska Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-) Best Urs Am 03.01.2017 um 13:45 schrieb Urs Liska: Hi all, it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right incantation. I would like to force some space between the first group in the right hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand. From the manual I found \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10 looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52). Any suggestion would be welcome. Urs  _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user  -- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.org http://lilypondblog.org _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user compound-slur-example-ravel-ondine-62.pdf (107K) Download Attachment
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote: > Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-) Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-) I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options? Cheers, Alexander _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Urs Liska Great start Urs! Why do you invert the stem direction in the first beat from (at least my copy of) the original? Having the RH 6tuplet stems up would seem to allow for closer staff spacing... Lots of lilypond challenges in this piece. Looking forward to your compound slurs on the penultimate page of the final movement! At 16:27 on 03 Jan 2017, Urs Liska wrote: >Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a >compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original >Sorabji example :-) > >Best >Urs > > >Am 03.01.2017 um 13:45 schrieb Urs Liska: >> Hi all, >> >> it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the >> right incantation. >> >> I would like to force some space between the first group in the right >> hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to >> squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand. >> >> From the manual I found >> >>         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10 >> >> looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space >> between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use >> it with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52). >> >> Any suggestion would be welcome. >> >> Urs >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lilypond-user mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user  > -- Mark Knoop _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Urs Liska Hi Urs, last year I was facing this issue and also used this override. Just as a hint is this example, using the edition-engraver. The method to enter succeeding mods which only differ by one value is the one I used. Some of the declared functions are taken from my own toolchain ... To the point: There are functions to enter edition-mods with some kind of template function. This is very useful to adjust note-column-spacing along the timeline or for example lyric-align. Jan-Peter Am 03.01.2017 um 14:19 schrieb Urs Liska: > > > Am 03.01.2017 um 14:16 schrieb Thomas Morley: >> 2017-01-03 14:12 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska <[hidden email]>: >>> >>> Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider: >>> >>> How about the new spacing section? >>> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section>>> >>> >>> Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force >>> some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the >>> individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such. >>> >>> Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace >>> notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but >>> I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the >>> middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the >>> first \newSpacingSection. >>> >>> Thanks anyway >>> Urs >> >> I often use >> \once \override Score.NoteColumn.X-offset = #10 > > Thank you, that was it. > Controllable and basically clear: I force LilyPond to ignore its own > decision and tell it what to do instead. > > Urs > > PS: Andrew, I have the impression that could also be good for you > >> >> Cheers, >>   Harm > _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user edition-engraver-modmap.ly (1K) Download Attachment
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Alexander Kobel-2 Am 03.01.2017 um 17:01 schrieb Alexander Kobel: > On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote: >> Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-) > Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-) > I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options? Internally that's what happens. But by now it's not necessary anymore to fiddle around with this (and especially keeping the slur ends in sync). Last September I wrote a function \compoundSlur (which is in openLilyLIb, but still on a branch) which you apply instead of a slur start and where you can configure the inflection points. The current compound slur has been defined like this: \compoundSlur \with {   annotate = ##t   show-grid = ##t   start-point = #'(0.5 . -17)   start-angle = -15   start-ratio = 0.4   end-point = #'(0 . 0)   end-angle = -90   end-ratio = 0.06   inflection =   #'((X-ratio . .11)      (Y-offset . 5)      (angle . 35)      (ratio-left . 0.9)      (ratio-right . 0.16)) } I reattach a rendering *with* both the grid and the helper crosses and lines which significantly helps with shaping such a curve. The interesting point is that you can add an arbitrary number of inflection points like this, and the function will automatically make sure the segments are well connected, and with a straight line (i.e. the neighbor control points are in exactly opposite directions). You can read more about that in a thread "What to do wanting a 4th order Bézier?" and one "Compound Slurs", both from last September. Best Urs > > Cheers, > Alexander -- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.orghttp://lilypondblog.org_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user compound-slur-example-ravel-ondine-62.pdf (108K) Download Attachment
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 On 2017-01-03 17:25, Urs Liska wrote: > Am 03.01.2017 um 17:01 schrieb Alexander Kobel: >> On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote: >>> Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-) >> Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-) >> I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options? > > Internally that's what happens. But by now it's not necessary anymore to > fiddle around with this (and especially keeping the slur ends in sync). > Last September I wrote a function \compoundSlur [...] > I reattach a rendering *with* both the grid and the helper crosses and > lines which significantly helps with shaping such a curve. The > interesting point is that you can add an arbitrary number of inflection > points like this, and the function will automatically make sure the > segments are well connected, and with a straight line (i.e. the neighbor > control points are in exactly opposite directions). Without time to look in the details now: nice one. Personally, I find it sometimes more convenient to adjust piecewise cubic curves than higher order. The only drawback is that the thickness varies for each individual slur. Negligible for this example, maybe, but it's certainly not what one expects for long horizontal slurs. Unfortunately, AFAIK, neither PostScript nor SVG offer support for both higher degree curves or B-splines... Cheers, Alexander _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Mark Knoop-4 Am 03.01.2017 um 17:10 schrieb Mark Knoop: Great start Urs!  Thanks :-) Why do you invert the stem direction in the first beat from (at least my copy of) the original? Having the RH 6tuplet stems up would seem to allow for closer staff spacing... That's because I didn't look at that score. I copied it from the 2010 Henle edition. Actually the trigger to do finally enter this was to see that Henle's slurs suffer from the same shortcoming as my compound slurs: becoming so thin at the inflection point(s). Now looking at the original edition I think you're right, the stem directions are more favourable in terms of space. I don't know if that's an engraving or editorial decision at Henle. Lots of lilypond challenges in this piece.  Fortunately only for LilyPond and not for the player ;-) Looking forward to your compound slurs on the penultimate page of the final movement! I don't know if I'm going to do a lot of them. But that would actually make a terrific project for a "free edition" ... Best Urs  At 16:27 on 03 Jan 2017, Urs Liska wrote:  Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-) Best Urs Am 03.01.2017 um 13:45 schrieb Urs Liska:  Hi all, it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right incantation. I would like to force some space between the first group in the right hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand. From the manual I found \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10 looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52). Any suggestion would be welcome. Urs _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user  -- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.org http://lilypondblog.org _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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## Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

 In reply to this post by Alexander Kobel-2 Am 03.01.2017 um 17:39 schrieb Alexander Kobel: > On 2017-01-03 17:25, Urs Liska wrote: >> Am 03.01.2017 um 17:01 schrieb Alexander Kobel: >>> On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote: >>>> Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-) >>> Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-) >>> I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options? >> Internally that's what happens. But by now it's not necessary anymore to >> fiddle around with this (and especially keeping the slur ends in sync). >> Last September I wrote a function \compoundSlur [...] >> I reattach a rendering *with* both the grid and the helper crosses and >> lines which significantly helps with shaping such a curve. The >> interesting point is that you can add an arbitrary number of inflection >> points like this, and the function will automatically make sure the >> segments are well connected, and with a straight line (i.e. the neighbor >> control points are in exactly opposite directions). > Without time to look in the details now: nice one. Personally, I find it sometimes more convenient to adjust piecewise cubic curves than higher order. The title of the first thread is actually misleading, as the OP was quickly told that it's not higher order bezier curves he was actually asking for. This is actually what my function does: chaining regular LilyPond slurs together. > The only drawback is that the thickness varies for each individual slur. Negligible for this example, maybe, but it's certainly not what one expects for long horizontal slurs. Yes, this limitation was discussed quite a bit back then, and I didn't have a chance to investigate it further (as it would probably involve meddling with the C++ part of the code). I would also prefer having both ends of the complete object behave like a slur and everything in the middle as a plain line. Indeed, flat slurs are a desideratum my compound slurs can't really solve. There are quite some examples in the original Durand edition of the Ravel, where it would also be interesting to compare with the Henle rendering that suffers from compromises in this area, IMHO. Best Urs > Unfortunately, AFAIK, neither PostScript nor SVG offer support for both higher degree curves or B-splines... > > > Cheers, > Alexander -- [hidden email] https://openlilylib.orghttp://lilypondblog.org_______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user