Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

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Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
Hi all,

it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right
incantation.

I would like to force some space between the first group in the right
hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to
squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand.

From the manual I found

        \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10

looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space
between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it
with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52).

Any suggestion would be welcome.

Urs


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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Andrew Bernard
Hi Urs,

No solution from me, but I just feel compelled to mention that this is one of my BIG issues with lilypond that I cannot seem to control - adjusting fine spacing like this in my scores is never successful. If there is a way to do it, hopefully somebody will let us know. If not, this would be a hugely desirable enhancement. I also have issues with grace note spacing becoming uneven when used in the context of cross staff beaming, and compounding that with the use of dodecaphonic accidentals makes lilypond produce very ugly output. It's about my only criticism of the entire marvellous application.

Andrew


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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Schneidy

2017-01-03 13:53 GMT+01:00 Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]>:
Hi Urs,

No solution from me, but I just feel compelled to mention that this is one of my BIG issues with lilypond that I cannot seem to control - adjusting fine spacing like this in my scores is never successful. If there is a way to do it, hopefully somebody will let us know. If not, this would be a hugely desirable enhancement. I also have issues with grace note spacing becoming uneven when used in the context of cross staff beaming, and compounding that with the use of dodecaphonic accidentals makes lilypond produce very ugly output. It's about my only criticism of the entire marvellous application.

Andrew


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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Rutger Hofman
In reply to this post by Urs Liska
On 03-01-17 13:45, Urs Liska wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right
> incantation.
>
> I would like to force some space between the first group in the right
> hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to
> squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand.
>
> From the manual I found
>
>         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10
>
> looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space
> between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it
> with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52).
>
> Any suggestion would be welcome.
>
> Urs
>
>

Hacky: adding s32 (or whatever) as the first note of the grace group
works. Of course this is only because it is within a grace, but
otherwise force-hshift might help?

Rutger


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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

SoundsFromSound
In reply to this post by Schneidy
Schneidy wrote
Yes! This indeed.

I love the \newSpacingSection command it's a lifesaver! So happy this was added to LilyPond.
composer | sound designer | asmr artist
LilyPond video tutorials: http://bit.ly/LearnLilyPond
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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Alexander Kobel-2
In reply to this post by Schneidy
On 2017-01-03 13:56, Pierre Perol-Schneider wrote:
> How about the new spacing section?
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section

Sounds like the most proper solution, perhaps with adjustments of shortest-duration-space.

For dirty one-shot tweaks though, note-attached dummy markups with \textLengthOn will also work...
  { a b \once \textLengthOn c_\markup { \hspace #10 \null } d e f g }


HTH,
Alexander

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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Schneidy



Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:

Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such.

Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the first \newSpacingSection.

Thanks anyway
Urs


HTH,
Pierre

2017-01-03 13:53 GMT+01:00 Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]>:
Hi Urs,

No solution from me, but I just feel compelled to mention that this is one of my BIG issues with lilypond that I cannot seem to control - adjusting fine spacing like this in my scores is never successful. If there is a way to do it, hopefully somebody will let us know. If not, this would be a hugely desirable enhancement. I also have issues with grace note spacing becoming uneven when used in the context of cross staff beaming, and compounding that with the use of dodecaphonic accidentals makes lilypond produce very ugly output. It's about my only criticism of the entire marvellous application.

Andrew


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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Rutger Hofman


Am 03.01.2017 um 14:06 schrieb Rutger Hofman:

> On 03-01-17 13:45, Urs Liska wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right
>> incantation.
>>
>> I would like to force some space between the first group in the right
>> hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to
>> squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand.
>>
>> From the manual I found
>>
>>         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10
>>
>> looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space
>> between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it
>> with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52).
>>
>> Any suggestion would be welcome.
>>
>> Urs
>>
>>
>
> Hacky: adding s32 (or whatever) as the first note of the grace group
> works. Of course this is only because it is within a grace, but
> otherwise force-hshift might help?

Hey, this is cool. Pretty unsemantic hack but does actually work in this
context.

force-hshift usually doesn't help in cases like this (I think) because
it only shifts different voices against each other. So if no second
voice is present it just doesn't have any effect.

Urs

>
> Rutger
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Urs Liska
2017-01-03 14:12 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska <[hidden email]>:

>
>
> Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
>
> How about the new spacing section?
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section
>
>
> Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force
> some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the
> individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such.
>
> Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace
> notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but
> I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the
> middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the
> first \newSpacingSection.
>
> Thanks anyway
> Urs


I often use
\once \override Score.NoteColumn.X-offset = #10

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Andrew Bernard
In reply to this post by Schneidy
Hi Pierre,

I use proportional notation and the new spacing section is never happy when combined with that, it appears.

Oftimes I just wish I could tell lilypond to stop being so smart and do note spacing how I want it, regardless of whether it is 'correct' or not. Horror of horrors, I would even like to be able to specify point by point spacing in linear units like ems! [As you can see, a hopeless case am I!]

Andrew



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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2


Am 03.01.2017 um 14:16 schrieb Thomas Morley:

> 2017-01-03 14:12 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
>>
>> How about the new spacing section?
>> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section
>>
>>
>> Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force
>> some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the
>> individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such.
>>
>> Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace
>> notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but
>> I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the
>> middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the
>> first \newSpacingSection.
>>
>> Thanks anyway
>> Urs
>
> I often use
> \once \override Score.NoteColumn.X-offset = #10

Thank you, that was it.
Controllable and basically clear: I force LilyPond to ignore its own
decision and tell it what to do instead.

Urs

PS: Andrew, I have the impression that could also be good for you

>
> Cheers,
>   Harm

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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Urs Liska

Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-)

Best
Urs


Am 03.01.2017 um 13:45 schrieb Urs Liska:
Hi all,

it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the right
incantation.

I would like to force some space between the first group in the right
hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to 
squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand.

From the manual I found

        \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10

looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space
between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use it
with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52).

Any suggestion would be welcome.

Urs




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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Alexander Kobel-2
On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote:
> Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-)

Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-)
I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options?


Cheers,
Alexander

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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Mark Knoop-4
In reply to this post by Urs Liska
Great start Urs! Why do you invert the stem direction in the first beat
from (at least my copy of) the original? Having the RH 6tuplet stems up
would seem to allow for closer staff spacing...

Lots of lilypond challenges in this piece. Looking forward to your
compound slurs on the penultimate page of the final movement!

At 16:27 on 03 Jan 2017, Urs Liska wrote:

>Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a
>compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original
>Sorabji example :-)
>
>Best
>Urs
>
>
>Am 03.01.2017 um 13:45 schrieb Urs Liska:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the
>> right incantation.
>>
>> I would like to force some space between the first group in the right
>> hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to
>> squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand.
>>
>> From the manual I found
>>
>>         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10
>>
>> looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space
>> between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use
>> it with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52).
>>
>> Any suggestion would be welcome.
>>
>> Urs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user 
>


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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Jan-Peter Voigt
In reply to this post by Urs Liska
Hi Urs,

last year I was facing this issue and also used this override. Just as a
hint is this example, using the edition-engraver. The method to enter
succeeding mods which only differ by one value is the one I used. Some
of the declared functions are taken from my own toolchain ...
To the point: There are functions to enter edition-mods with some kind
of template function. This is very useful to adjust note-column-spacing
along the timeline or for example lyric-align.

Jan-Peter


Am 03.01.2017 um 14:19 schrieb Urs Liska:

>
>
> Am 03.01.2017 um 14:16 schrieb Thomas Morley:
>> 2017-01-03 14:12 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Am 03.01.2017 um 13:56 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
>>>
>>> How about the new spacing section?
>>> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/new-spacing-section
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, this at least does affect the horizontal spacing and allows to force
>>> some space in. But it's very hard to control because you don't affect the
>>> individual note/grob but rather the whole spacing process as such.
>>>
>>> Attached is the best result I could achieve. The space before the grace
>>> notes is fine (I used a higher value than necessary to make it visible), but
>>> I have the side-effect of the misaligned clef (and too much space in the
>>> middle of the first beamed group. This is regardless of where I place the
>>> first \newSpacingSection.
>>>
>>> Thanks anyway
>>> Urs
>>
>> I often use
>> \once \override Score.NoteColumn.X-offset = #10
>
> Thank you, that was it.
> Controllable and basically clear: I force LilyPond to ignore its own
> decision and tell it what to do instead.
>
> Urs
>
> PS: Andrew, I have the impression that could also be good for you
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>   Harm
>

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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Alexander Kobel-2


Am 03.01.2017 um 17:01 schrieb Alexander Kobel:
> On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote:
>> Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-)
> Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-)
> I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options?

Internally that's what happens. But by now it's not necessary anymore to
fiddle around with this (and especially keeping the slur ends in sync).
Last September I wrote a function \compoundSlur (which is in
openLilyLIb, but still on a branch) which you apply instead of a slur
start and where you can configure the inflection points. The current
compound slur has been defined like this:

\compoundSlur \with {
  annotate = ##t
  show-grid = ##t

  start-point = #'(0.5 . -17)
  start-angle = -15
  start-ratio = 0.4
  end-point = #'(0 . 0)
  end-angle = -90
  end-ratio = 0.06

  inflection =
  #'((X-ratio . .11)
     (Y-offset . 5)
     (angle . 35)
     (ratio-left . 0.9)
     (ratio-right . 0.16))
}

I reattach a rendering *with* both the grid and the helper crosses and
lines which significantly helps with shaping such a curve. The
interesting point is that you can add an arbitrary number of inflection
points like this, and the function will automatically make sure the
segments are well connected, and with a straight line (i.e. the neighbor
control points are in exactly opposite directions).

You can read more about that in a thread "What to do wanting a 4th order
Bézier?" and one "Compound Slurs", both from last September.

Best
Urs

>
> Cheers,
> Alexander

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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Alexander Kobel-2
On 2017-01-03 17:25, Urs Liska wrote:

> Am 03.01.2017 um 17:01 schrieb Alexander Kobel:
>> On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote:
>>> Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-)
>> Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-)
>> I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options?
>
> Internally that's what happens. But by now it's not necessary anymore to
> fiddle around with this (and especially keeping the slur ends in sync).
> Last September I wrote a function \compoundSlur [...]
> I reattach a rendering *with* both the grid and the helper crosses and
> lines which significantly helps with shaping such a curve. The
> interesting point is that you can add an arbitrary number of inflection
> points like this, and the function will automatically make sure the
> segments are well connected, and with a straight line (i.e. the neighbor
> control points are in exactly opposite directions).

Without time to look in the details now: nice one. Personally, I find it sometimes more convenient to adjust piecewise cubic curves than higher order.
The only drawback is that the thickness varies for each individual slur. Negligible for this example, maybe, but it's certainly not what one expects for long horizontal slurs. Unfortunately, AFAIK, neither PostScript nor SVG offer support for both higher degree curves or B-splines...


Cheers,
Alexander

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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Mark Knoop-4



Am 03.01.2017 um 17:10 schrieb Mark Knoop:
Great start Urs! 

Thanks :-)

Why do you invert the stem direction in the first beat
from (at least my copy of) the original? Having the RH 6tuplet stems up
would seem to allow for closer staff spacing...

That's because I didn't look at that score. I copied it from the 2010 Henle edition. Actually the trigger to do finally enter this was to see that Henle's slurs suffer from the same shortcoming as my compound slurs: becoming so thin at the inflection point(s).
Now looking at the original edition I think you're right, the stem directions are more favourable in terms of space. I don't know if that's an engraving or editorial decision at Henle.

Lots of lilypond challenges in this piece. 

Fortunately only for LilyPond and not for the player ;-)

Looking forward to your
compound slurs on the penultimate page of the final movement!

I don't know if I'm going to do a lot of them.
But that would actually make a terrific project for a "free edition" ...

Best
Urs


At 16:27 on 03 Jan 2017, Urs Liska wrote:
Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a
compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original
Sorabji example :-)

Best
Urs


Am 03.01.2017 um 13:45 schrieb Urs Liska:
Hi all,

it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the
right incantation.

I would like to force some space between the first group in the right
hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to 
squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand.

From the manual I found

        \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10

looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space
between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use
it with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52).

Any suggestion would be welcome.

Urs




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Re: Forcing some horizontal space between two notes

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Alexander Kobel-2


Am 03.01.2017 um 17:39 schrieb Alexander Kobel:

> On 2017-01-03 17:25, Urs Liska wrote:
>> Am 03.01.2017 um 17:01 schrieb Alexander Kobel:
>>> On 2017-01-03 16:27, Urs Liska wrote:
>>>> Just for reference, attached you'll find my preliminary result with a compound slur that is somewhat more "mainstream" than the original Sorabji example :-)
>>> Geez! Apparently there's not just a need for irrational tuplets, but also Bézier curves of arbitrary degrees for slurs! Some NURBS anyone? ;-)
>>> I assume you joined two slurs for that huge one due to the lack of better options?
>> Internally that's what happens. But by now it's not necessary anymore to
>> fiddle around with this (and especially keeping the slur ends in sync).
>> Last September I wrote a function \compoundSlur [...]
>> I reattach a rendering *with* both the grid and the helper crosses and
>> lines which significantly helps with shaping such a curve. The
>> interesting point is that you can add an arbitrary number of inflection
>> points like this, and the function will automatically make sure the
>> segments are well connected, and with a straight line (i.e. the neighbor
>> control points are in exactly opposite directions).
> Without time to look in the details now: nice one. Personally, I find it sometimes more convenient to adjust piecewise cubic curves than higher order.

The title of the first thread is actually misleading, as the OP was
quickly told that it's not higher order bezier curves he was actually
asking for.
This is actually what my function does: chaining regular LilyPond slurs
together.

> The only drawback is that the thickness varies for each individual slur. Negligible for this example, maybe, but it's certainly not what one expects for long horizontal slurs.

Yes, this limitation was discussed quite a bit back then, and I didn't
have a chance to investigate it further (as it would probably involve
meddling with the C++ part of the code). I would also prefer having both
ends of the complete object behave like a slur and everything in the
middle as a plain line.
Indeed, flat slurs are a desideratum my compound slurs can't really
solve. There are quite some examples in the original Durand edition of
the Ravel, where it would also be interesting to compare with the Henle
rendering that suffers from compromises in this area, IMHO.

Best
Urs

> Unfortunately, AFAIK, neither PostScript nor SVG offer support for both higher degree curves or B-splines...
>
>
> Cheers,
> Alexander

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Actually forcing some horizontal space between two notes

David Sumbler
In reply to this post by Urs Liska
On Tue, 2017-01-03 at 13:45 +0100, Urs Liska wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> it seems to me this should be easily doable, but I don't find the
> right
> incantation.
>
> I would like to force some space between the first group in the right
> hand and the following grace notes. This is necessary in order to 
> squeeze a slur between them, coming from the dis in the left hand.
>
> >
> > From the manual I found
>         \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.padding = #10
>
> looking like it's what I need. But used like this it introduces space
> between *all* notes, regardless of where it is placed. Trying to use
> it
> with \once it doesn't have any effect (using 2.19.52).
>
> Any suggestion would be welcome.
>
> Urs

Urs was asking about this, but the discussion has moved on to other
aspects of the particular problem he was trying to solve.

So I thought I would ask once again something which I have often felt I
wanted.  That is, is there any way of specifying the minimum horizontal
distance that should be left between 2 consecutive notes?

It would be very useful sometimes to be able to tell Lilypond something
like: "Regardless of any other considerations, make sure that the
second note is at least 3 staff-spaces to the right of the first note."

Can this be done?

David

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