First steps in Lilypond

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First steps in Lilypond

foxfanfare
Hi everybody,

Instead of spoiling the thread about  OpenLilyLib
<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/OpenLilyLib-with-Windows-td208760.html>  
I started to ask some questions, I thought better to start a separate thread
in order to ask some of my newbie questions!

I started working on LilyPond last week and I find this software really
interesting, though quite difficult to learn for a start! So, my project
right now is to copy a difficult piano score I made earlier in Sibelius
which would help me to learn this software. I will decide then if I
definitely keep it or if I buy Dorico!

1. Here is a first issue I wasn't able to figure out :
    <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms01.png>

    If I understood well the notation reference guide, when a voice start
crossing staves, LP deactivate the automatic collusion. How can I solve this
hairpin problem? I allready tried to write the dynamic marks either in the
upper staff notes or in a separate dynamic voice, but I can't avoid the
collusion.

    I'd like to add some space between the two staves but I had the
impression that the chapter 4.4. about Vertical Spacing refers more about a
global layout option but doesn't apply to this situation?

2. House-Style

    Like I already said in my first post, I worked a long time with Sibelius
for wich I configured all the notation rules and made a nice House-Style
(quite similar to Henle). My goal is to do the same here in Lilypond but I'd
like to know if someone has already done something like that which could
help me spare some time? (change all the fonts, the beams damping, lines
thickness, etc. that would look more to this kind of edition). The mutopia
scores I have consulted doesn't seem to change very much those parameters.

Thank you for your precious help!



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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Helge Kruse-4
Am 02.04.2018 um 13:44 schrieb foxfanfare:
> I started to ask some questions, I thought better to start a separate thread
> in order to ask some of my newbie questions!
Yes it's very appreciated to start a new thread if you have your own
topic. Responding to old mail and just changing the topic would look
ugly in mail readers that support threaded view of mails.

> I started working on LilyPond last week and I find this software really
> interesting, though quite difficult to learn for a start! So, my project
> [...]
>     If I understood well the notation reference guide, when a voice start
> crossing staves, LP deactivate the automatic collusion. How can I solve this
> hairpin problem? I allready tried to write the dynamic marks either in the
> upper staff notes or in a separate dynamic voice, but I can't avoid the
> collusion.
Thanks for the good picture and the description what you have tried. But
we can't know how your Lilypond file looks like. It won't help you if
somebody guesses what you've done. Please strip down your score and
provide a minimal example of the source file that can be compiled by
Lilypond. Obviously you've already done the fist part, since you could
create the PNG file. Please attach the .ly file. Yo we can reproduce the
behavior exactly.

Best regards
Helge

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Re: First steps in Lilypond

foxfanfare
Thank you for answering Helge. I didn't know the code was necessary to solve
my issue!

Here is the excerpt :


> \version "2.19.80"
> \language "english"
>
> %--------Definitions and shorthands
>
> % switch from upper staff to lower and vice versa
> toLH = { \change Staff = "LH" \voiceOne }
> toRH = { \change Staff = "RH" \voiceTwo }
>
>
> %----- musical content
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> % right hand, voice 1
> RHone = \relative c'' {
>  
>   \voiceOne
>   \shape #'((0 . 0.5) (2 . 1) (-2 . 1) (0 . 0)) PhrasingSlur
>   ef4.\( |
>  
>   g16. f32 d8\) c16.[( d32)] |
>   \shape #'((0 . -0.5) (2 . 1) (-2 . 1) (0 . 0)) PhrasingSlur
>   ef4.\( |
>   bf'16. af32 d,8\) d16.[( ef32)] |
>  
> }
>
> % right hand, voice 2
> RHtwo = \relative c'' {
>  
>   \voiceTwo
>   g16 f ef \toLH d c bf |
>   af4 \toRH af'8~ |
>   af16 g ef \toLH d c g |
>   f4 \toRH r8 |
>
> }
>
> % right hand, more voices
> RHmore = \relative c' {
>  
>   \voiceThree
>   s8 \tuplet 3/2 { ef16 g ef \voiceFour ef'[ g, ef'] |
>                    af, c af~ } af8 s | \voiceThree
>   s8 \tuplet 3/2 { ef16 g ef \voiceFour ef'[ g, ef'] |
>                    c d af~ } af8 s |
>
> }
>
> % left hand, voice 1
> LHone = \relative c, {
>  
>   \oneVoice \tuplet 3/2 {
> <c c'>
> 16 ef' g } r s8. |
>   \voiceOne s16 c8 s8. |
>   \oneVoice \tuplet 3/2 {
> &lt;
> c,, c'
> &gt;
> 16 ef' g } r s8. |
>   \voiceOne s16 c8 s8. |
>  
> }
>
> % left hand, voice 2
> LHtwo = \relative c {
>  
>   \voiceTwo
>  
>   s8. c16\( ef g |
>   f, c'' f,\) \override Rest.staff-position = #0 r r8 |
>   s8. c16\( ef g |
>   f, c'' f\) r r8 |
>  
> }
>
>
> %------------ Dynamics
>
> % tempo, bar lines and dynamics
> dynamics = {
>   \time 3/8
>   s4 s8\< |
>   s\> s4\! |
>   s4 s8\< |
>   s\> s4\! |
>  
> }
>
>
> %-------Typeset music
>
> \score {
>   \new PianoStaff \with {
>     instrumentName = ""
>     \accidentalStyle Score.piano
>   } <<
>     \new Staff = "RH" \with {
>       midiInstrument = "acoustic grand"
>     } <<
>       \clef treble
>       \key c \minor
>       \new Voice \RHone
>       \new Voice \RHtwo
>       \new Voice \RHmore
>     >>
>     \new Dynamics <<
>       \dynamics
>     >>
>     \new Staff = "LH" \with {
>       midiInstrument = "acoustic grand"
>     } <<
>       \clef bass
>       \key c \minor
>       \new Voice \LHone
>       \new Voice \LHtwo
>     >>
>   >>
>  
>   \layout {
>     \accidentalStyle piano
>     \context {
>       \Score
>       \omit TupletNumber
>       \omit TupletBracket
>       \mergeDifferentlyHeadedOn \mergeDifferentlyDottedOn
>       \override Beam.damping = #2.5
>     }
>   }
> }

Thanks for you help.



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Re: First steps in Lilypond

foxfanfare
The problem was solved thanks to Brian B !

For those interested, I used the override command to add some space within
the two staves:

\overrideProperty Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-system-details
            #'((alignment-distances . (12.5)))

<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms02.png>



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Re: First steps in Lilypond

foxfanfare
New question:

Is it normal in those measures that the slurs in voiceOne of the left hand
are too long and doesn't fix themselves with the 8th notes stem? Does this
mean I have to "shape" all of them or am I missing something here?

<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png>

*\version "2.19.80"
\language "english"

\relative c, {
 
   \time 3/8
   \clef bass
   \key c\minor
   \omit Score.TupletNumber
   << {
   \tuplet 3/2 8 { *16( f'' af \clef treble f'[ d f~] }  <f d'>8)
   \clef bass \tuplet 3/2 8 { <c,, c'>16( ef' g \clef treble ef'[ c ef~] }
<ef c'>8) |
   \clef bass \tuplet 3/2 8 { <af,,, af'>16( c' f af[ c f] } fs8) |
   } \\ {
   s \tuplet 3/2 { s16 d8~ } d\noBeam |
   s \tuplet 3/2 { s16 c8~ } c\noBeam |
   s \tuplet 3/2 { s16 c8~ } c\noBeam |
   } >>
  }*



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Re: First steps in Lilypond

dak
In reply to this post by foxfanfare
foxfanfare <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi everybody,
>
> Instead of spoiling the thread about  OpenLilyLib
> <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/OpenLilyLib-with-Windows-td208760.html>  
> I started to ask some questions, I thought better to start a separate thread
> in order to ask some of my newbie questions!
>
> I started working on LilyPond last week and I find this software really
> interesting, though quite difficult to learn for a start! So, my project
> right now is to copy a difficult piano score I made earlier in Sibelius
> which would help me to learn this software. I will decide then if I
> definitely keep it or if I buy Dorico!

To quote lyrics from a famous song: "if you can make it there, you can
make it anywhere".  To wit: mapping primordial piano music with its
loose relation of notes and ad-hoc voices and connecting articulation to
LilyPond's concepts is pretty much the worst-case of complex music you
can deal with.  Orchestral/choral/symphonic music is comparatively
straightforward in contrast, and even the nominal superset of organ
music tends to be simpler in practice because it tends to be more
rigidly mapped to voiced music rather than serving as a tool for
texturing sound.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: First steps in Lilypond

foxfanfare
David Kastrup wrote
> To wit: mapping primordial piano music with its
> loose relation of notes and ad-hoc voices and connecting articulation to
> LilyPond's concepts is pretty much the worst-case of complex music you
> can deal with.  Orchestral/choral/symphonic music is comparatively
> straightforward in contrast, and even the nominal superset of organ
> music tends to be simpler in practice because it tends to be more
> rigidly mapped to voiced music rather than serving as a tool for
> texturing sound.

lol I'm not sure it's very comforting!




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Re: First steps in Lilypond

dak
foxfanfare <[hidden email]> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote
>> To wit: mapping primordial piano music with its
>> loose relation of notes and ad-hoc voices and connecting articulation to
>> LilyPond's concepts is pretty much the worst-case of complex music you
>> can deal with.  Orchestral/choral/symphonic music is comparatively
>> straightforward in contrast, and even the nominal superset of organ
>> music tends to be simpler in practice because it tends to be more
>> rigidly mapped to voiced music rather than serving as a tool for
>> texturing sound.
>
> lol I'm not sure it's very comforting!

If I were primarily a salesman instead of a developer, I would not be
starving.  You'll find lots of people ready to help with problems you
encounter, and most importantly _able_ to help with problems you
encounter because you can easily exchange and discuss fragments of
LilyPond input on the mailing lists.  But organizing piano music still
is a more troublesome application in the vast scope of music LilyPond
will handle.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: First steps in Lilypond

foxfanfare
Thank you for your comments David.

If I understand correctly what you are implying, maybe learning lilypond in
order to engrave complex piano music isn't a such good idea after all?



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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Noeck
Don’t be scared! It’s not the easiest way to start learning LilyPond,
but from what I’ve seen on this list, you got pretty far and all the
remaining issues can be solved. Just be assured that other types of
music (e.g. songs, violin parts or even choir scores) are usually easier.

Cheers,#

Joram

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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Andrew Bernard
In reply to this post by foxfanfare
Hi foxfanfare,

I agree with David about piano music. In my work, principally what I do is set very complex New Complexity School modernist scores for piano. It gets really difficult. Not a task for beginners by any means.

But lilypond can be extended with functions and Scheme code and is so powerful that it can be made to do pretty much anything at all, with enough patience - and enough questions to the list!

Piano music by its nature presents all sorts of problems as David has said. To a certain extent, setting big orchestral pieces is easier.

Don't be put off. Lilypond is the right tool for the job for piano music. My advice to you starting out is to practice the basics of note entry and layout with lilypond, become fluent, and then turn your mind to the small tweaks that you may want later, not all at once at the outset. Read the Notation Reference (referred to on the list as the NR) a _lot_. Ask questions. You will soon figure out the idiosyncratic usages needed for keyboard works, and your scores will look better than anything the Other Programs can do.

Oh, and do use the latest development version (2.19.18), despite the exhortations on the website sending you to the stable 2.18 release. Calling the xurrent 2.19 series unstable is an open source convention of modesty, but it serves to deflect people from using a version which has lots fo new features (that you are going to want for complicated piano music) and which despite hammering it full time all day I have not been able to crash even once. A tribute to our fantastic developers.

Andrew



On 6 April 2018 at 19:09, foxfanfare <[hidden email]> wrote:

If I understand correctly what you are implying, maybe learning lilypond in
order to engrave complex piano music isn't a such good idea after all?

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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Andrew Bernard
Correction, latest is 2.19.81.

On 6 April 2018 at 19:19, Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> wrote:


Oh, and do use the latest development version (2.19.18),

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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Urs Liska-3
In reply to this post by foxfanfare


Am 6. April 2018 11:09:09 MESZ schrieb foxfanfare <[hidden email]>:
>Thank you for your comments David.
>
>If I understand correctly what you are implying, maybe learning
>lilypond in
>order to engrave complex piano music isn't a such good idea after all?

No, it *is* a good idea.
What you should read out of David's comments is that starting your journey with that kind of music is not the most comfortable choice to make.
If that hasn't immediately put you off you're on the right track :-)

>
>
>
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Re: First steps in Lilypond

foxfanfare
All right! Thank you for all your encouraging comments. So I'll continue my
efforts in learning this awesome but complex software. I have two weeks of
vacations coming on, so more time to figure it out!

Unfortunately, I have to start learning with this kind of piano piece
because 95% of my work are made for advanced pianists...

BTW, does anyone have the answer to my question about this slur problem :
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png
<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png>  

I just want to know if this kind of issue needs to be controled by a "shape"
command or if it needs something else I didn't know?

Anyway, it's really awesome to see such a community like this... Thank you
very much!



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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Andrew Bernard
Hi foxfanfare,


On 6 April 2018 at 20:51, foxfanfare <[hidden email]> wrote:

BTW, does anyone have the answer to my question about this slur problem :
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png


For this, the convention is to post what is known as a Minimal Working Example (MWE). Then people are willing to help out because they don't have to recreate a complex part of a score from scratch. So reduce this to one slurred example, and post the code, eliminating everything that is unnecessary to make the point under discussion. Also, giving an MWE means that people can post code as an answer, not just a verbal description.

There is a \shape function in lilypond. But there is a much more capable function called \shapeII in the openlilylib library, which is a collection of code that is useful and powerful but for one reason or another has not been incorporated into the baseline lilypond code.

Investigate the github repository:

https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets

Openlilylib is one demonstration of the ability to extend and enhance lilypond, and I find it indispensable.

And don't forget the Lilypond Snippet Repository, a collection of ways of doing things that are not immediately obvious. Idioms, if you like.

http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Search

And lastly, don't forget you can search the mailing list user archives:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/

Hope this helps. Sorry if some of this is a repetition of other posts.


Andrew


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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Urs Liska-3
In reply to this post by foxfanfare


Am 6. April 2018 12:51:07 MESZ schrieb foxfanfare <[hidden email]>:

>All right! Thank you for all your encouraging comments. So I'll
>continue my
>efforts in learning this awesome but complex software. I have two weeks
>of
>vacations coming on, so more time to figure it out!
>
>Unfortunately, I have to start learning with this kind of piano piece
>because 95% of my work are made for advanced pianists...
>
>BTW, does anyone have the answer to my question about this slur problem
>:
>http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png
><http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png>  
>
>I just want to know if this kind of issue needs to be controled by a
>"shape"
>command or if it needs something else I didn't know?

I'm afraid you just got a spot where LilyPond's default decisions are not sufficient.

Before using \shape I would experiment with changing the slur defaults. For example I could imagine they work better when they are higher and more rounded.
Unfortunately I can't say right now (I'm not at home) what the properties are that you should look for.

Good luck
Urs


>
>Anyway, it's really awesome to see such a community like this... Thank
>you
>very much!
>
>
>
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>
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RE: First steps in Lilypond

Mark Stephen Mrotek
In reply to this post by foxfanfare
FoxFanFare,

I set Chopin's Nocturne No. 12.
Lilypond allowed me to arrange beams, fingerings, and dynamics to suit my
reading.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: lilypond-user
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
foxfanfare
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2018 2:09 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: First steps in Lilypond

Thank you for your comments David.

If I understand correctly what you are implying, maybe learning lilypond in
order to engrave complex piano music isn't a such good idea after all?



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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Robert Blackstone-2
In reply to this post by foxfanfare
Hi foxfanfare,

I have followed, or rather tried to follow, the discussion in this thread without completely understanding your problem. Maybe I'm still too much of a beginner myself.
So far I have mainly typeset piano works, perhaps not extremely complex ones, but still.

On 6 Apr 2018, at 12:51 , foxfanfare <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> BTW, does anyone have the answer to my question about this slur problem :
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png
> <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png>

I looked at this "Brahms03.png" and set iin LilyPond. It needs a few tricks but on he whole I found it  fairly straightforward.

What exactly is your question about " this slur problem " in this fragment?

Best regards,
Robert Blackstone




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Re: First steps in Lilypond

Knute Snortum
In reply to this post by foxfanfare
Here's how I engraved the snippet in LilyPond (there are other ways too):

%%% Start
\version "2.19.81"
\language "english"

global = {
  \key c \minor
  \time 3/8
}

tupletInvisible = {
  \override TupletBracket.bracket-visibility = ##f
  \override TupletNumber.transparent = ##t
}

rightOne = \relative c'' {
  f4 af16.( g32) |
  ef4 g16.( f32) |
  c8.([ d32 c)] b16( c) |
}

rightTwo = \relative c' {
  r16 <f af>[ r <af d> r <af f'>] |
  r16 <ef g>[ r <g c> r <g ef'>] |
  r16 c,( f) r r8 |
}

leftThree = \relative c, {
  \tupletInvisible
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { <b b'>16[( f'' af] \clef treble f'[ d f~] } <f d'>8)
  \clef bass
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { <c,, c'>16[( ef g] \clef treble ef''[ c ef~] } <ef c'>8)
  \clef bass
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { <af,,, af'>16[( c' f] af[ c f] } fs8)
}

leftFour = \relative c' {
  \tupletInvisible
  \autoBeamOff
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { s8. \clef treble s16 d8~ } d8 |
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { s8. s16 c8~ } c8 |
  \clef bass
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { s8. s16 c8~ } c8 |
}

rightHand = {
  \global
  \clef treble
  <<
    \new Voice { \voiceOne \rightOne }
    \new Voice { \voiceTwo \rightTwo }
  >>
}

leftHand = {
  \global
  \clef bass
  <<
    \new Voice { \voiceThree \leftThree }
    \new Voice { \voiceFour \leftFour }
  >>
}

\score {
  \new PianoStaff <<
    \new Staff \rightHand
    \new Staff \leftHand
  >>
}
%%% End

The default slurs look okay to me, but perhaps could be improved.  You might do it like this:

%%% Start
...
tupletInvisible = {
  \override TupletBracket.bracket-visibility = ##f
  \override TupletNumber.transparent = ##t
}

slurShapeOne = \shape #'((0 . -1) (0 . 0) (0 . 0) (0 . -1)) Slur
slurShapeTwo = \shape #'((0 . -1) (0 . 0) (0 . 0) (0 . -1)) Slur
...
leftThree = \relative c, {
  \tupletInvisible
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { \slurShapeOne <b b'>16[( f'' af] \clef treble f'[ d f~] } <f d'>8)
  \clef bass
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { <c,, c'>16[( ef g] \clef treble ef''[ c ef~] } <ef c'>8)
  \clef bass
  \tuplet 3/2 2 { \slurShapeTwo <af,,, af'>16[( c' f] af[ c f] } fs8)
}
%%% End 


---
Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 3:51 AM, foxfanfare <[hidden email]> wrote:
All right! Thank you for all your encouraging comments. So I'll continue my
efforts in learning this awesome but complex software. I have two weeks of
vacations coming on, so more time to figure it out!

Unfortunately, I have to start learning with this kind of piano piece
because 95% of my work are made for advanced pianists...

BTW, does anyone have the answer to my question about this slur problem :
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png
<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5604/Brahms03.png>

I just want to know if this kind of issue needs to be controled by a "shape"
command or if it needs something else I didn't know?

Anyway, it's really awesome to see such a community like this... Thank you
very much!



--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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dak
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Re: First steps in Lilypond

dak
Knute Snortum <[hidden email]> writes:

> Here's how I engraved the snippet in LilyPond (there are other ways too):
>
> %%% Start
> \version "2.19.81"
> \language "english"
>
> global = {
>   \key c \minor
>   \time 3/8
> }
>
> tupletInvisible = {
>   \override TupletBracket.bracket-visibility = ##f
>   \override TupletNumber.transparent = ##t
> }

Why not use \scaleDurations instead of \tuplet then?

--
David Kastrup

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