Fingering: showing strings by dots?

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Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Alasdair McAndrew
I am trying to typeset some early 18th century French music for viola da gamba.  The standard notation, which I would like to keep, is that the string is indicated by a row of dots above the finger number.  That is, for example, a 4 with three dots over it (generally in a slight arc, rather than in a straight line), indicates using the fourth finger on the third string.  

Can this be achieved in Lilypond?  I can't find any references in the manual, but maybe I haven't looked hard enough...

Thank you very much,
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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Schneidy
Hi Alasdair,
I've never seen such notation. I'd be curious to see an example.
E.g.:

\version "2.20.0"

#(define-markup-command
  (circled-pattern layout props radius angle num arg)
  (number? number? number? markup?)
  (interpret-markup layout props
   (let* ((rep (abs num))(rad (abs radius)))
    (cond
     ((= num 0) (markup ""))
     ((= num 1) (markup arg))
     (#t (markup
          (#:combine
           (#:null)
           (fold
            (lambda (i prev)
             (markup
               (#:combine
                (#:rotate
                 (* i (/ angle rep))
                 (#:concat (#:null #:hspace rad arg)))
               prev)))
            (markup (#:null))
            (iota (1+ rep))))))))))

four = \markup\translate #'(-.7 . 0) \rotate #45 \circled-pattern #2 #90 #4 "."

{
  c'-3^\four
}

Cheers,
Pierre

Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 04:23, Alasdair McAndrew <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I am trying to typeset some early 18th century French music for viola da gamba.  The standard notation, which I would like to keep, is that the string is indicated by a row of dots above the finger number.  That is, for example, a 4 with three dots over it (generally in a slight arc, rather than in a straight line), indicates using the fourth finger on the third string.  

Can this be achieved in Lilypond?  I can't find any references in the manual, but maybe I haven't looked hard enough...

Thank you very much,
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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Andrew Bernard
Hi Pierre,

Bass gamba in France has very detailed markups, such as poussez (p) and
tirez (t), push and pull (up and down bow), and a whole swag more. I'll
dig up some Marin Marais and send to you.


Andrew


On 23/08/2020 2:35 pm, Pierre Perol-Schneider wrote:
> Hi Alasdair,
> I've never seen such notation. I'd be curious to see an example.
>

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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Alasdair McAndrew
In reply to this post by Schneidy
Dear Pierre,

Thank you for your detailed reply.  Here is an example of the notation:

marais.png

You'll see that in the first bar of this line there are two examples with a 4 with two dots, and in the last bar there are two examples of a 4 with three dots.  And here's an example which includes a 3 with four dots:

marais2.png
This is beginning to push this notation almost further than reasonable, but nevertheless it was a standard notation for the time and for this instrument, and I'd like to maintain it if I can.

There are other issues with this music, which can bristle with expressive marks: bowing and fingering information, various shorthands for different sorts of ornaments, over and above the placement of the notes.  But I'll write another post about that.  For the fingering maybe I could possibly also use the markup command to place some characters atop each other, a digit and a row of closely spaced dots.  You'll see that although I mentioned in my original post that the dots are in an arc, that's not necessarily the case, and I could probably get away with a straight line.  

Thank you again,
Alasdair

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 2:35 PM Pierre Perol-Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Alasdair,
I've never seen such notation. I'd be curious to see an example.
E.g.:

\version "2.20.0"

#(define-markup-command
  (circled-pattern layout props radius angle num arg)
  (number? number? number? markup?)
  (interpret-markup layout props
   (let* ((rep (abs num))(rad (abs radius)))
    (cond
     ((= num 0) (markup ""))
     ((= num 1) (markup arg))
     (#t (markup
          (#:combine
           (#:null)
           (fold
            (lambda (i prev)
             (markup
               (#:combine
                (#:rotate
                 (* i (/ angle rep))
                 (#:concat (#:null #:hspace rad arg)))
               prev)))
            (markup (#:null))
            (iota (1+ rep))))))))))

four = \markup\translate #'(-.7 . 0) \rotate #45 \circled-pattern #2 #90 #4 "."

{
  c'-3^\four
}

Cheers,
Pierre

Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 04:23, Alasdair McAndrew <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I am trying to typeset some early 18th century French music for viola da gamba.  The standard notation, which I would like to keep, is that the string is indicated by a row of dots above the finger number.  That is, for example, a 4 with three dots over it (generally in a slight arc, rather than in a straight line), indicates using the fourth finger on the third string.  

Can this be achieved in Lilypond?  I can't find any references in the manual, but maybe I haven't looked hard enough...

Thank you very much,


--
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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Andrew Bernard
Hi Alasdair,

I play bass gamba - I've always wanted to do the lovely curved beams
(and for Bach,. and the lot!). No chance lilypond will ever be able to,
I don't think!

Andrew



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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Schneidy
In reply to this post by Alasdair McAndrew
Thank you for the examples.

Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 07:59, Alasdair McAndrew <[hidden email]> a écrit :
 
There are other issues with this music, which can bristle with expressive marks: bowing and fingering information, various shorthands for different sorts of ornaments, over and above the placement of the notes.  But I'll write another post about that.  For the fingering maybe I could possibly also use the markup command to place some characters atop each other, a digit and a row of closely spaced dots.  You'll see that although I mentioned in my original post that the dots are in an arc, that's not necessarily the case, and I could probably get away with a straight line.  

E.g.:

\markup \pattern #4 #X #.2 \musicglyph #"dots.dot"

Cheers,
Pierre
 
 
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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Schneidy
In reply to this post by Andrew Bernard
Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 07:56, Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi Pierre,

Bass gamba in France has very detailed markups, such as poussez (p) and
tirez (t), push and pull (up and down bow), and a whole swag more. I'll
dig up some Marin Marais and send to you.

Thank you Andrew.

 

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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Schneidy
In reply to this post by Andrew Bernard
Dear Andrew,

Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 08:09, Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> a écrit :

I play bass gamba - I've always wanted to do the lovely curved beams
(and for Bach,. and the lot!). No chance lilypond will ever be able to,
I don't think!

I saw Harm (T. Morley) making a short presentation (no details) of curved beams few months ago (in german).
So, yes, it's possible...

Cheers,
Pierre


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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Thomas Morley-2
Am So., 23. Aug. 2020 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider
<[hidden email]>:

>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 08:09, Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> I play bass gamba - I've always wanted to do the lovely curved beams
>> (and for Bach,. and the lot!). No chance lilypond will ever be able to,
>> I don't think!
>
>
> I saw Harm (T. Morley) making a short presentation (no details) of curved beams few months ago (in german).
> So, yes, it's possible...
>
> Cheers,
> Pierre
>
>

Could you post the link?
I don't remember lol

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Schneidy
Cheers,
Pierre

Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 11:02, Thomas Morley <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Am So., 23. Aug. 2020 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider
<[hidden email]>:
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 08:09, Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> I play bass gamba - I've always wanted to do the lovely curved beams
>> (and for Bach,. and the lot!). No chance lilypond will ever be able to,
>> I don't think!
>
>
> I saw Harm (T. Morley) making a short presentation (no details) of curved beams few months ago (in german).
> So, yes, it's possible...
>
> Cheers,
> Pierre
>
>

Could you post the link?
I don't remember lol

Cheers,
  Harm
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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Thomas Morley-2
Am So., 23. Aug. 2020 um 18:39 Uhr schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider
<[hidden email]>:

>
> Sure Harm, here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YND32HckZqk&t=1m24s
> Cheers,
> Pierre
>
> Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 11:02, Thomas Morley <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> Am So., 23. Aug. 2020 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider
>> <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> > Dear Andrew,
>> >
>> > Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 08:09, Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>> >
>> >> I play bass gamba - I've always wanted to do the lovely curved beams
>> >> (and for Bach,. and the lot!). No chance lilypond will ever be able to,
>> >> I don't think!
>> >
>> >
>> > I saw Harm (T. Morley) making a short presentation (no details) of curved beams few months ago (in german).
>> > So, yes, it's possible...
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Pierre
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Could you post the link?
>> I don't remember lol
>>
>> Cheers,
>>   Harm
Hi Pierre,

That's the video of my talk at Salzburg.
Though, the topic was not about curvy beams. I just showed some images
to demonstrate what's possible with user-code. Meant as an
introduction.
Among those were indeed wavy Beams (more attached).
Alas, the code for it is much more complicated than the one I actually
showed during the talk.
And those wavy Beams don't follow the pitches (as those in the
manuscripts by Bach etc). I developed the code for the (paid)
type-setting of some avantgarde composition - there they stand more
for only vague determined note-durations.
If you look closely you'll see that the stems need to be adjusted frequently.

To summarize, the code for those wavy Beams will not do what's desired here!
Nevertheless it may be not impossible, though I've not the time to
dive into it...

Cheers,
  Harm

beam-squiggle-02.png (157K) Download Attachment
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Re: Fingering: showing strings by dots?

Schneidy
Hi Harm and thank you for your detailed answer.
For some reason, at the first time, I was pretty sure it looked like curved beams...
My mistake!
Cheers,
Pierre

Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 19:11, Thomas Morley <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Am So., 23. Aug. 2020 um 18:39 Uhr schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider
<[hidden email]>:
>
> Sure Harm, here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YND32HckZqk&t=1m24s
> Cheers,
> Pierre
>
> Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 11:02, Thomas Morley <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> Am So., 23. Aug. 2020 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider
>> <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> > Dear Andrew,
>> >
>> > Le dim. 23 août 2020 à 08:09, Andrew Bernard <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>> >
>> >> I play bass gamba - I've always wanted to do the lovely curved beams
>> >> (and for Bach,. and the lot!). No chance lilypond will ever be able to,
>> >> I don't think!
>> >
>> >
>> > I saw Harm (T. Morley) making a short presentation (no details) of curved beams few months ago (in german).
>> > So, yes, it's possible...
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Pierre
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Could you post the link?
>> I don't remember lol
>>
>> Cheers,
>>   Harm

Hi Pierre,

That's the video of my talk at Salzburg.
Though, the topic was not about curvy beams. I just showed some images
to demonstrate what's possible with user-code. Meant as an
introduction.
Among those were indeed wavy Beams (more attached).
Alas, the code for it is much more complicated than the one I actually
showed during the talk.
And those wavy Beams don't follow the pitches (as those in the
manuscripts by Bach etc). I developed the code for the (paid)
type-setting of some avantgarde composition - there they stand more
for only vague determined note-durations.
If you look closely you'll see that the stems need to be adjusted frequently.

To summarize, the code for those wavy Beams will not do what's desired here!
Nevertheless it may be not impossible, though I've not the time to
dive into it...

Cheers,
  Harm