Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

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Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

Simon Albrecht-2
Hello everybody,

this is a suggestion by Urs from a user list thread on 2018-08-30: for
putting together scores of four-hand music with the typical primo right
page, secondo left page layout it would be useful to select through a
paper variable whether the music of a \book be typeset on only odd or
only even pages, with according page numbers and margins (in case of
twosided = ##t).

Best, Simon


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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

ptoye
Simon,

I would certainly vote for it!

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:[hidden email]
www.ptoye.com

-------------------------
Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 11:03:04 AM, Simon Albrecht wrote:

> Hello everybody,

> this is a suggestion by Urs from a user list
> thread on 2018-08-30: for
> putting together scores of four-hand music with
> the typical primo right
> page, secondo left page layout it would be
> useful to select through a
> paper variable whether the music of a \book be typeset on only odd or
> only even pages, with according page numbers
> and margins (in case of
> twosided = ##t).

> Best, Simon


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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

James Lowe-3
In reply to this post by Simon Albrecht-2
Hello Simon,


On 11/09/18 11:03, Simon Albrecht wrote:

> Hello everybody,
>
> this is a suggestion by Urs from a user list thread on 2018-08-30: for
> putting together scores of four-hand music with the typical primo
> right page, secondo left page layout it would be useful to select
> through a paper variable whether the music of a \book be typeset on
> only odd or only even pages, with according page numbers and margins
> (in case of twosided = ##t).
>
> Best, Simon

Added as https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5416/

James

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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

Aaron Hill
In reply to this post by Simon Albrecht-2
On 2018-09-11 3:03 am, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> this is a suggestion by Urs from a user list thread on 2018-08-30: for
> putting together scores of four-hand music with the typical primo
> right page, secondo left page layout it would be useful to select
> through a paper variable whether the music of a \book be typeset on
> only odd or only even pages, with according page numbers and margins
> (in case of twosided = ##t).

Just to clarify, is this request strictly about page numbering and
margins (something I believe LilyPond already supports albeit via
manual* configuration), or does it also encompass the automatic
synchronization between the primo and secondo parts at each page break
(also something that requires manual** intervention to achieve at the
moment)?

* Each part's margins can be customized uniquely to achieve the desired
mirroring, and the page numbering needs only a little arithmetic to show
up as odd-only or even-only.

** Providing things do not align by chance, adding explicit \pageBreak
commands would ensure that page turns happen at the same moment.

-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

Simon Albrecht-2
On 11.09.2018 16:32, Aaron Hill wrote:

> On 2018-09-11 3:03 am, Simon Albrecht wrote:
>> this is a suggestion by Urs from a user list thread on 2018-08-30: for
>> putting together scores of four-hand music with the typical primo
>> right page, secondo left page layout it would be useful to select
>> through a paper variable whether the music of a \book be typeset on
>> only odd or only even pages, with according page numbers and margins
>> (in case of twosided = ##t).
>
> Just to clarify, is this request strictly about page numbering and
> margins (something I believe LilyPond already supports albeit via
> manual* configuration), or does it also encompass the automatic
> synchronization between the primo and secondo parts at each page break
> (also something that requires manual** intervention to achieve at the
> moment)?
>
> * Each part's margins can be customized uniquely to achieve the
> desired mirroring, and the page numbering needs only a little
> arithmetic to show up as odd-only or even-only.
>
> ** Providing things do not align by chance, adding explicit \pageBreak
> commands would ensure that page turns happen at the same moment.

This is not about automatic synchronization. That’s of course a far
longer shot, and there’s already an issue for it (don’t want to search
it right now).
If adding a simple switch for odd-only/even-only is only syntactic sugar
of sorts for functionality that with some effort is already available,
that’s all the better, then this is only about designing the interface.

Best, Simon

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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

Urs Liska-3
Hi Aaron,

I fully agree with Simon's description but want to add one more question
to it:


Am 12.09.2018 um 02:06 schrieb Simon Albrecht:

> On 11.09.2018 16:32, Aaron Hill wrote:
>> On 2018-09-11 3:03 am, Simon Albrecht wrote:
>>> this is a suggestion by Urs from a user list thread on 2018-08-30: for
>>> putting together scores of four-hand music with the typical primo
>>> right page, secondo left page layout it would be useful to select
>>> through a paper variable whether the music of a \book be typeset on
>>> only odd or only even pages, with according page numbers and margins
>>> (in case of twosided = ##t).
>>
>> Just to clarify, is this request strictly about page numbering and
>> margins (something I believe LilyPond already supports albeit via
>> manual* configuration),

One side is overlooking something here. Those of us who sponsor the
feature request are thinking that there currently is _no_ viable
solution to produce the intended outcome of two scores that can be
zipped to a primo/secondo volume.

As a workaround the issue that LilyPond doesn't provide proper support
for this kind of score the idea is to

  * define (page) breaks in an external file
  * create one score for the "prima" part with *even* page numbers only
    and the margins set for *left* pages
  * create another score for the "seconda" part with *odd* page numbers
  * apply the same break set to both files to have synchronized (page)
    breaks.
  * externally zip the PDFs together

Do you know of a way to create a score with a page numbering of 2, 4, 6
etc. ?
If there's a *reasonable* solution to that we could figure out a way of
achieving the whole workflow without changing LilyPond, either as some
external scripted solution or from within a Scheme library.

Urs
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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

ptoye
Hello Urs and others,

-------------------------
Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 7:05:56 AM, Urs Liska wrote:

> Hi Aaron,

> I fully agree with Simon's description but want
> to add one more question
> to it:


> Am 12.09.2018 um 02:06 schrieb Simon Albrecht:
>> On 11.09.2018 16:32, Aaron Hill wrote:
>>> On 2018-09-11 3:03 am, Simon Albrecht wrote:
>>>> this is a suggestion by Urs from a user list thread on 2018-08-30: for
>>>> putting together scores of four-hand music with the typical primo
>>>> right page, secondo left page layout it would be useful to select
>>>> through a paper variable whether the music of a \book be typeset on
>>>> only odd or only even pages, with according page numbers and margins
>>>> (in case of twosided = ##t).

>>> Just to clarify, is this request strictly about page numbering and
>>> margins (something I believe LilyPond already supports albeit via
>>> manual* configuration),

> One side is overlooking something here. Those of us who sponsor the
> feature request are thinking that there
> currently is _no_ viable
> solution to produce the intended outcome of two scores that can be
> zipped to a primo/secondo volume.

> As a workaround the issue that LilyPond doesn't provide proper support
> for this kind of score the idea is to

>   * define (page) breaks in an external file
>   * create one score for the "prima" part with
> *even* page numbers only
>     and the margins set for *left* pages
>   * create another score for the "seconda" part with *odd* page numbers
>   * apply the same break set to both files to
> have synchronized (page)
>     breaks.
>   * externally zip the PDFs together

> Do you know of a way to create a score with a
> page numbering of 2, 4, 6
> etc. ?
> If there's a *reasonable* solution to that we
> could figure out a way of
> achieving the whole workflow without changing
> LilyPond, either as some
> external scripted solution or from within a Scheme library.
This link http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-05/msg00149.html seems to do what you want for page numbering, although it puts the page numbers in the centre of the page rather than the left & right corners and doesn't adjust margins. Thanks to "Hwaen Ch'uqi" <[hidden email]> for this.


> Urs
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:[hidden email]
www.ptoye.com
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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

Urs Liska-3
Hello Peter,


Am 12.09.2018 um 10:17 schrieb Peter Toye:

> Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only
> pagination Hello Urs and others,
>
> -------------------------
> Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 7:05:56 AM, Urs Liska wrote:
>
> *> Hi Aaron,
>
> > I fully agree with Simon's description but want
> > to add one more question
> > to it:
> ...
>
> *This link
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-05/msg00149.htmlseems 
> to do what you want for page numbering, although it puts the page
> numbers in the centre of the page rather than the left & right corners
> and doesn't adjust margins. Thanks to "Hwaen Ch'uqi"
> <[hidden email]> for this.
>

Thank you for this link, which indeed provides a workable part of a
solution.
I think one can create a streamlined tool for this task. But that
doesn't make the feature request invalid, just less urgent.

Best
Urs

> *> Urs
> > _______________________________________________
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> *> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond 
> <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Peter
> mailto:[hidden email]
> www.ptoye.com <http://www.ptoye.com>

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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

Aaron Hill
On 2018-09-12 1:33 am, Urs Liska wrote:

> Am 12.09.2018 um 10:17 schrieb Peter Toye:
>> Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 7:05:56 AM, Urs Liska wrote:
>> > I fully agree with Simon's description but want
>> > to add one more question
>> > to it:
>> ...
>>
>> *This link
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-05/msg00149.htmlseems 
>> to do what you want for page numbering, although it puts the page
>> numbers in the centre of the page rather than the left & right corners
>> and doesn't adjust margins. Thanks to "Hwaen Ch'uqi"
>> <[hidden email]> for this.
>>
>
> Thank you for this link, which indeed provides a workable part of a
> solution.
> I think one can create a streamlined tool for this task. But that
> doesn't make the feature request invalid, just less urgent.

I was not questioning the validity of the request, but rather I wanted
to double-check its scope.

 From what I have seen, there is nothing that LilyPond *needs* to be
modified for, as setting margins and indicating page numbers is already
there.  The problem is that it is not *easy* to do.  One has to manually
set the margins for the primo and secondo parts and ensure they mirror
the values correctly.  Also, it may be non-obvious to some using Scheme
to adjust the page numbering as rendered.  But regardless of this
non-obviousness, LilyPond is quite malleable and up to the task.

NOTE: When doing primo/secondo layout by hand, you would also need to
make sure that LilyPond uses the same settings for "odd" and "even"
paper variables, since each part is intended to be strictly left or
right-facing.  LilyPond would have no idea that you ultimately intend to
intermingle the pages of two PDFs together.

So, I am all for adding in support to make the process more direct and
accessible.  And it seems like something that should be easy enough to
do, given a suitable  interface with appropriate semantics defined.  
Well, I say "easy enough", because as far as page numbering and margins
are concerned, I am thinking this *should* be fairly straightforward.  
Of course for me to say something like that, I have probably just put my
name into the hat for doing the engineering work.  ;-)

But to circle back, I wanted to ensure that we were capturing the
entirety of what is entailed in primo/secondo layout in either within
the scope of a single request or a series of related requests, whichever
scheme is appropriate for how this project runs.  It sounds like the
latter is preferred here, with finer grain/narrower scope on requests.

You in fact mentioned yet another issue which is the collating of the
two parts' pages into a single output document.  I am fairly certain
that external tooling can handle this task, but again it might be
something that LilyPond could support.  For instance, if LilyPond can be
made to coordinate the automatic synchronization of page breaks, then it
makes sense for LilyPond also to output the parts interleaved.  This
though assumes that folks *want* collation.  It could very well end up
an optional feature to enable/disable as desired.

P.S.  My Italian is rather lacking, so I only just realized I have been
saying "primo/secondo" as opposed to "prima/seconda".  Is this a case of
grammatical gender, or have I been using the wrong part of speech?

-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

ptoye
Hi Aaron,



-------------------------
Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 10:54:38 AM, Aaron Hill wrote:


> P.S.  My Italian is rather lacking, so I only
> just realized I have been
> saying "primo/secondo" as opposed to
> "prima/seconda".  Is this a case of
> grammatical gender, or have I been using the wrong part of speech?

I think this would depend on the gender of the pianist. My printed duos mostly say "Primo/secondo" but some have the "a" termination - presumably aimed at Victorian young ladies :-)

> -- Aaron Hill

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:[hidden email]
www.ptoye.com

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Re: Feature request: paper variable for odd-only or even-only pagination

Federico Bruni-2
In reply to this post by Aaron Hill


Il giorno mer 12 set 2018 alle 11:54, Aaron Hill
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> P.S.  My Italian is rather lacking, so I only just realized I have
> been saying "primo/secondo" as opposed to "prima/seconda".  Is this a
> case of grammatical gender, or have I been using the wrong part of
> speech?
>

I guess it's related to part, which in italian is "parte" (female
noun). Female adjectives ends with -a as in "prima/seconda".




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