Feature request - contemporary trill indications

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Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Jamie Bullock
Hi!

Is there any chance that someone could write a lilypond engraver for
contemporary trill notation? By this I mean the use of the usual trill
sign, with a small, stemless notehead in brackets after the main note,
indicating the 'auxilliary note' to be trilled with.

This notation technique is common in contemporary scores, such as those
by Boulez, and I use it a lot in my own work. To my knowledge there is
no other 'standard' method for indicating the auxilliary note of a trill
in atonal music.

I have tried to work out a way of doing this with both lilypond 2.4.5
and 2.5.29, but I can't seem to find a method that works properly. Any
suggestions, even for a workaround would be much appreciated.

--
Regards,

Jamie



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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Mats Bengtsson-6
You mean something like
\afterGrace c4^\trill {\once \override Stem #'transparent = ##t cis4}
See the section on grace notes in the manual.

    /Mats

Jamie Bullock wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Is there any chance that someone could write a lilypond engraver for
> contemporary trill notation? By this I mean the use of the usual trill
> sign, with a small, stemless notehead in brackets after the main note,
> indicating the 'auxilliary note' to be trilled with.
>
> This notation technique is common in contemporary scores, such as those
> by Boulez, and I use it a lot in my own work. To my knowledge there is
> no other 'standard' method for indicating the auxilliary note of a trill
> in atonal music.
>
> I have tried to work out a way of doing this with both lilypond 2.4.5
> and 2.5.29, but I can't seem to find a method that works properly. Any
> suggestions, even for a workaround would be much appreciated.
>

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Han-Wen Nienhuys
In reply to this post by Jamie Bullock
Jamie Bullock wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Is there any chance that someone could write a lilypond engraver for
> contemporary trill notation? By this I mean the use of the usual trill
> sign, with a small, stemless notehead in brackets after the main note,
> indicating the 'auxilliary note' to be trilled with.
>
> This notation technique is common in contemporary scores, such as those
> by Boulez, and I use it a lot in my own work. To my knowledge there is
> no other 'standard' method for indicating the auxilliary note of a trill
> in atonal music.
>
> I have tried to work out a way of doing this with both lilypond 2.4.5
> and 2.5.29, but I can't seem to find a method that works properly. Any
> suggestions, even for a workaround would be much appreciated.

If you're willing to pay for the development, I could implement this as
a small feature.

--
  Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Erik Sandberg-2
On Thursday 30 June 2005 13.14, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> If you're willing to pay for the development, I could implement this as
> a small feature.

Hi,

Is there somewhere a list of features which you are willing to implement for a
fee?

Imagine a potential user who needs a feature that is unimplemented in lily,
and compares the program to a commercial program which offers this feature.
It might be interesting for this person to know
- that it is possible to get this feature implemented for a fee
- how much it approximately would cost; this can be compared to the cost of
obtaining a copy of the commercial alternative.

Erik


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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

D Josiah Boothby
In reply to this post by Han-Wen Nienhuys
Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:

> Jamie Bullock wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Is there any chance that someone could write a lilypond engraver for
>> contemporary trill notation? By this I mean the use of the usual trill
>> sign, with a small, stemless notehead in brackets after the main note,
>> indicating the 'auxilliary note' to be trilled with.
>>
>> This notation technique is common in contemporary scores, such as those
>> by Boulez, and I use it a lot in my own work. To my knowledge there is
>> no other 'standard' method for indicating the auxilliary note of a trill
>> in atonal music.
>> I have tried to work out a way of doing this with both lilypond 2.4.5
>> and 2.5.29, but I can't seem to find a method that works properly. Any
>> suggestions, even for a workaround would be much appreciated.
>
>
> If you're willing to pay for the development, I could implement this
> as a small feature.
>
If there are a few people willing to pitch in, this is something that I
would be willing to pay for to help make happen. I just doubt that, with
my student budget, I would be able to pay for this on my own.

Josiah


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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Jamie Bullock
In reply to this post by Mats Bengtsson-6
Yes, except the grace note needs to be in brackets. Any way to do this?

Jamie

On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 13:08 +0200, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> You mean something like
> \afterGrace c4^\trill {\once \override Stem #'transparent = ##t cis4}
> See the section on grace notes in the manual.
>
>     /Mats
>





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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Jamie Bullock
In reply to this post by D Josiah Boothby
Han-Wen,

You could have a proportional royalty from every piece I publish based
on the number of trills I write :-)

Joking aside, how much would you charge to implement such a feature?
Then it would just be a case of establishing whether we have enough
contributions to pay. We already have Josiah and I - any other people
interested?

Jamie

On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:46 -0700, D Josiah Boothby wrote:

> Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>
> > Jamie Bullock wrote:
> >
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> Is there any chance that someone could write a lilypond engraver for
> >> contemporary trill notation? By this I mean the use of the usual trill
> >> sign, with a small, stemless notehead in brackets after the main note,
> >> indicating the 'auxilliary note' to be trilled with.
> >>
<snip>

> >
> >
> > If you're willing to pay for the development, I could implement this
> > as a small feature.
> >
> If there are a few people willing to pitch in, this is something that I
> would be willing to pay for to help make happen. I just doubt that, with
> my student budget, I would be able to pay for this on my own.
>
> Josiah
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user



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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Mats Bengtsson-6
In reply to this post by Jamie Bullock
Sure, at least if you know something about the Scheme language
and how it's used in LilyPond.
The example called stencil-hacking.ly in the "Regression Test" document
at www.lilypond.org shows how to add parentheses around a note head.
It shouldn't be so hard to modify it to give brackets instead (if you
search the mailing list archives, you might find that someone has
already done it).

    /Mats

Jamie Bullock wrote:

> Yes, except the grace note needs to be in brackets. Any way to do this?
>
> Jamie
>
> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 13:08 +0200, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
>
>>You mean something like
>>\afterGrace c4^\trill {\once \override Stem #'transparent = ##t cis4}
>>See the section on grace notes in the manual.
>>
>>    /Mats
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
         Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================


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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Jamie Bullock
Thanks. I've already tried that, but it isn't really robust enough - it
puts accidentals outside the brackets for example. It also doesn't take
account of the note/grace note spacing properly. I haven't really got
time to learn some Scheme, so I might take Han-Wen up on his offer.

Jamie

On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:47 +0200, Mats Bengtsson wrote:

> Sure, at least if you know something about the Scheme language
> and how it's used in LilyPond.
> The example called stencil-hacking.ly in the "Regression Test" document
> at www.lilypond.org shows how to add parentheses around a note head.
> It shouldn't be so hard to modify it to give brackets instead (if you
> search the mailing list archives, you might find that someone has
> already done it).
>
>     /Mats
>
> Jamie Bullock wrote:
> > Yes, except the grace note needs to be in brackets. Any way to do this?
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> > On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 13:08 +0200, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> >
> >>You mean something like
> >>\afterGrace c4^\trill {\once \override Stem #'transparent = ##t cis4}
> >>See the section on grace notes in the manual.
> >>
> >>    /Mats
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > lilypond-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user




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Bounties - was [Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications]

Jamie Bullock
In reply to this post by Erik Sandberg-2
Something like the Gnome bounties system perhaps? See -
http://www.gnome.org/bounties/index.html for details.


Jamie

On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 19:02 +0200, Erik Sandberg wrote:

> On Thursday 30 June 2005 13.14, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> > If you're willing to pay for the development, I could implement this as
> > a small feature.
>
> Hi,
>
> Is there somewhere a list of features which you are willing to implement for a
> fee?
>
> Imagine a potential user who needs a feature that is unimplemented in lily,
> and compares the program to a commercial program which offers this feature.
> It might be interesting for this person to know
> - that it is possible to get this feature implemented for a fee
> - how much it approximately would cost; this can be compared to the cost of
> obtaining a copy of the commercial alternative.
>
> Erik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user



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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Han-Wen Nienhuys
In reply to this post by Erik Sandberg-2
Erik Sandberg wrote:

> On Thursday 30 June 2005 13.14, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>
>>If you're willing to pay for the development, I could implement this as
>>a small feature.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Is there somewhere a list of features which you are willing to implement for a
> fee?

No. I'm willing to implement almost everything for a fee. The only
conditions are that there must be a sane way to implement it, and that
it is useful for the larger LilyPond audience.

--
  Han-Wen Nienhuys - [hidden email] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: Feature request - contemporary trill indications

Erik Sandberg-2
On Friday 01 July 2005 11.54, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:

> Erik Sandberg wrote:
> > On Thursday 30 June 2005 13.14, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> >>If you're willing to pay for the development, I could implement this as
> >>a small feature.
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Is there somewhere a list of features which you are willing to implement
> > for a fee?
>
> No. I'm willing to implement almost everything for a fee. The only
> conditions are that there must be a sane way to implement it, and that
> it is useful for the larger LilyPond audience.

OK. It might be useful to advertise this somewhere in a visible place, for
reasons mentioned in my previous mail. Perhaps something like an additional
point in the FAQ, like "I don't want to switch from Finale to Lilypond
because lily lacks the feature foo, which I need". This question is slightly
different from the existing question "Could you add this feature for me?",
though the answer might be very similar.

Erik



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