Export to ?????

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
14 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Export to ?????

Don Gingrich
I've been looking and looking and I cannot
find any useful references to export file
formats from LilyPond.

Now, I will agree that LilyPond's PDF output
is very good looking and is actually my preferred
sheet music, But the sad reality it that there are
people who do exist who use tools other than
LilyPond, and that occasionally it becomes
necessary to exchange files with these poor
benighted souls. ;-)

Is there any export available from the .ly format?

If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
to that of some of the M$ programs. And some
reasonable export that preserves a substantial
portion of the information might be useful.

My personal needs are simple -- ABC format
would probably be enough for me.

Thanks,

-Don
--
Don Gingrich

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Richard Shann-2
On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 17:45 +1000, Don Gingrich wrote:
> If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
> to that of some of the M$ programs.
There is a crucial difference, you are entitled, indeed, encouraged to
write such an exporter.

Richard



_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Urs Liska
In reply to this post by Don Gingrich


Am 25.05.2017 um 09:45 schrieb Don Gingrich:
> I've been looking and looking and I cannot
> find any useful references to export file
> formats from LilyPond.

That's not completely true (see below)

>
> Now, I will agree that LilyPond's PDF output
> is very good looking and is actually my preferred
> sheet music, But the sad reality it that there are
> people who do exist who use tools other than
> LilyPond, and that occasionally it becomes
> necessary to exchange files with these poor
> benighted souls. ;-)

Very true. Working with such persons or companies forces a LilyPond user
to either use other tools right from the start or simply be excluded
from that collaboration.

>
> Is there any export available from the .ly format?

"any" may nail it. Frescobaldi has (if "experimental features" are
activated") an "Export to MusicXML" option, which is, well,
experimental. It is still pretty limited and quite fragile (makes
assumptions about "correct" input etc.), but it *is* there at least.
Over the summer we will have a student in the Google Summer of Code
program who will hopefully make great progress on that.

Of course MIDI is a working albeit very limited export format that has
been available for a very long time.

There have been multiple attempts at creating export functionality, but
it *is* a tricky issue for technical reasons buried in the basic
LilyPond architecture.

Right now Jan-Peter Voigt (who might chime in to this discussion) is
considering something like an API for a generic export infrastructure
where exporters to various formats may be created and hooked in more easily.

>
> If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
> to that of some of the M$ programs.

Indeed, this is the case. I *think* originally noone thought it
necessary, LilyPond being the "engrave" tool in a Unix-like toolchain
from one-purpose tools. This discussion has been around for many years
by now, but due to the technical challenges and the lack of manpower no
viable solution has been found yet.

> And some
> reasonable export that preserves a substantial
> portion of the information might be useful.

Yes.

Best
Urs
>
> My personal needs are simple -- ABC format
> would probably be enough for me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Don

--
[hidden email]
https://openlilylib.org
http://lilypondblog.org


_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Don Gingrich
In reply to this post by Richard Shann-2
On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:08:35 Richard Shann wrote:
> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 17:45 +1000, Don Gingrich wrote:
> > If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
> > to that of some of the M$ programs.
>
> There is a crucial difference, you are entitled, indeed, encouraged to
> write such an exporter.
>
> Richard

OK,

I'll agree with that. Just feeing frustrated at the moment
since my primary collaborator is essentially 100% Finale
and has some idiosyncratic ideas about how music should
be handled.

His thinking is that for Folk Music, the musician should learn
"by ear", though as a concession, he'll allow scores. And the
MP3 files that I generate in a work-flow that is:

MIDI -> WAV ->MP3

Don't satisfy him.

<Grumble>

-Don
--
Don Gingrich

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

David Kastrup
Don Gingrich <[hidden email]> writes:

> On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:08:35 Richard Shann wrote:
>> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 17:45 +1000, Don Gingrich wrote:
>> > If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
>> > to that of some of the M$ programs.
>>
>> There is a crucial difference, you are entitled, indeed, encouraged to
>> write such an exporter.
>
> I'll agree with that. Just feeing frustrated at the moment
> since my primary collaborator is essentially 100% Finale
> and has some idiosyncratic ideas about how music should
> be handled.
>
> His thinking is that for Folk Music, the musician should learn
> "by ear", though as a concession, he'll allow scores. And the
> MP3 files that I generate in a work-flow that is:
>
> MIDI -> WAV ->MP3
>
> Don't satisfy him.
>
> <Grumble>

This is only partly a problem with LilyPond.  But partly, it indeed is.

And partly, that is because programmers, the kind of people actually
improving LilyPond and its tools, often work with LilyPond because they
very much prefer working with it over other tools, so interchange tends
to be lower on the agenda than if such an agenda was based on the
"average user" rather than the "average contributor".

I still don't agree that this is anything like the walled gardens of
Microsoft.  There is no wall, just a limit to the range of the water
sprinklers.

--
David Kastrup

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Andrew Bernard
In reply to this post by Don Gingrich
Hi Don,

You cannot call this 'lock-in' because nobody has forced you to use lilypond and you have not paid anything for it, and there is no intent on the part of the lilypond project to capture you and your money. I am unable to see how the concept of deliberate commercial 'lock-in' applies to open source projects.

Lack of export formats in lilypond is not a fair criticism, especially since there is no universal music notation exchange standard, and MusicXML is severely lacking in many respects, and is not necessarily going to ever become a universal standard.

If you need to export to ABC and so, then by all means start a project to do it and recruit participants. If you were truly locked in, such a path would not be possible. One technical issue with 'downsampling' to a lesser format is what to do with the sophisticated constructs that ABC cannot handle.

The problem with not being able to work with Finale users is just on of those things. Unfortunate.

And sorry, I for one, even as a fanatically dedicated Linux user for decades or however long, do not like needless bashing of Microsoft with the M$ epithet. That's verging on trolling.

On 25 May 2017 at 18:34, Don Gingrich <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
> to that of some of the M$ programs.



Andrew


_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Urs Liska



Am 25.05.2017 um 10:51 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
Hi Don,

You cannot call this 'lock-in' because nobody has forced you to use lilypond and you have not paid anything for it, and there is no intent on the part of the lilypond project to capture you and your money. I am unable to see how the concept of deliberate commercial 'lock-in' applies to open source projects.

Then maybe I suggest to call it a practical-lock-in.
As a user, if you've decided to work with LilyPond and created a project or even a whole library of projects, you're basically locked in to using them with LilyPond. There's currently no viable solution to take an existing project (at least of some complexity) and pass that on to someone who insists on using other software.

There's no commercial intent to this, OK.
And there's no restriction to create a solution, OK.

But for a *user* this doesn't make any difference, he can't reuse his work otherwise.
And apart from the usual case of commercial publishers insisting on Sibelius files there *are* other valid reasons why one would like to export LilyPond files. For example getting the music into a DAW to create *good* audio, where MIDI is still very limited. Or exporting to Humdrum files for which there is a plethora of tools for music analysis. And probably a lot more.


Lack of export formats in lilypond is not a fair criticism, especially since there is no universal music notation exchange standard, and MusicXML is severely lacking in many respects, and is not necessarily going to ever become a universal standard.

I think it *is* a defect that LilyPond hasn't ever really considered export to *any* other encoding formats important (right from the initial conception). Yes, there is no ODF for music. But if LibreOffice wouldn't provide export filters for Word or Excel I think lots of people wouldn't be able to use it.
Not being able to export to MusicXML (with all its limitations) is a hard reason not to use LilyPond for many people who might otherwise consider it.

BTW: MEI may well become such a universal standard.


If you need to export to ABC and so, then by all means start a project to do it and recruit participants. If you were truly locked in, such a path would not be possible.

But let's face it: for the average user this path is only a theoretical option.

Urs

One technical issue with 'downsampling' to a lesser format is what to do with the sophisticated constructs that ABC cannot handle.

The problem with not being able to work with Finale users is just on of those things. Unfortunate.

And sorry, I for one, even as a fanatically dedicated Linux user for decades or however long, do not like needless bashing of Microsoft with the M$ epithet. That's verging on trolling.

On 25 May 2017 at 18:34, Don Gingrich <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
> to that of some of the M$ programs.



Andrew



_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

-- 
[hidden email]
https://openlilylib.org
http://lilypondblog.org

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Mats Behre-3
If the only purpose is to export to Finale or Sibelius the score itself may well be a solution - there is software like SmartScore or PhotoScore that is able convert it to their formats. Of course, they cost money, so your friend may not be willing to go down that path ...

Mats

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Jan-Peter Voigt
In reply to this post by Urs Liska
Hello Don, Urs and all,

just to summarize what I was talking about recently at the Music Encoding Conference in Tours. Yes, I am working on an API to provide a generalized plug for modules that are able to write MusicXML, MEI, Humdrum and others. I am not familiar with ABC, but maybe one can work on it *when* I can present some tidy code.
In fact for my presentation I created to modules to write Humdrum and MusicXML. But those are not complete right now - no ties, now slurs and a lot more missing. But it writes the notes correctly and I can open the generated MusicXML with MuseScore. I will present it to the community after tidying up the code.
My vision is to have an API that also allows Import modules. That way LilyPond can be a chain-link in a multiformat toolchain. Others can make use of its great typesetting and LilyPond-users (like me) can make use of the great tools outside Lilys world.

Jan-Peter


Am 25. Mai 2017 10:18:13 MESZ schrieb Urs Liska <[hidden email]>:


Am 25.05.2017 um 09:45 schrieb Don Gingrich:
I've been looking and looking and I cannot
find any useful references to export file
formats from LilyPond.

That's not completely true (see below)


Now, I will agree that LilyPond's PDF output
is very good looking and is actually my preferred
sheet music, But the sad reality it that there are
people who do exist who use tools other than
LilyPond, and that occasionally it becomes
necessary to exchange files with these poor
benighted souls. ;-)

Very true. Working with such persons or companies forces a LilyPond user
to either use other tools right from the start or simply be excluded
from that collaboration.


Is there any export available from the .ly format?

"any" may nail it. Frescobaldi has (if "experimental features" are
activated") an "Export to MusicXML" option, which is, well,
experimental. It is still pretty limited and quite fragile (makes
assumptions about "correct" input etc.), but it *is* there at least.
Over the summer we will have a student in the Google Summer of Code
program who will hopefully make great progress on that.

Of course MIDI is a working albeit very limited export format that has
been available for a very long time.

There have been multiple attempts at creating export functionality, but
it *is* a tricky issue for technical reasons buried in the basic
LilyPond architecture.

Right now Jan-Peter Voigt (who might chime in to this discussion) is
considering something like an API for a generic export infrastructure
where exporters to various formats may be created and hooked in more easily.


If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
to that of some of the M$ programs.

Indeed, this is the case. I *think* originally noone thought it
necessary, LilyPond being the "engrave" tool in a Unix-like toolchain
from one-purpose tools. This discussion has been around for many years
by now, but due to the technical challenges and the lack of manpower no
viable solution has been found yet.

And some
reasonable export that preserves a substantial
portion of the information might be useful.

Yes.

Best
Urs

My personal needs are simple -- ABC format
would probably be enough for me.

Thanks,

-Don

--
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

David Wright
In reply to this post by Don Gingrich
On Thu 25 May 2017 at 18:34:24 (+1000), Don Gingrich wrote:

> On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:08:35 Richard Shann wrote:
> > On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 17:45 +1000, Don Gingrich wrote:
> > > If not, then I suggest that this is a "lock-in" similar
> > > to that of some of the M$ programs.
> >
> > There is a crucial difference, you are entitled, indeed, encouraged to
> > write such an exporter.
> >
> > Richard
>
> OK,
>
> I'll agree with that. Just feeing frustrated at the moment
> since my primary collaborator is essentially 100% Finale
> and has some idiosyncratic ideas about how music should
> be handled.
>
> His thinking is that for Folk Music, the musician should learn
> "by ear", though as a concession, he'll allow scores. And the
> MP3 files that I generate in a work-flow that is:
>
> MIDI -> WAV ->MP3
>
> Don't satisfy him.
>
> <Grumble>

I think you need to do some straight-talking with this person.
They don't believe in scores, but think that you should have
to convert your LP scores to Finale.

They think that musicians should learn by ear, but don't
approve of your sound files.

It's easy to have idiosyncratic ideas, difficult to put them
into practice. They just want to unload the effort onto you.

Cheers,
David.

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

David Wright
In reply to this post by Mats Behre-3
On Thu 25 May 2017 at 12:09:16 (+0200), Mats Behre wrote:
> If the only purpose is to export to Finale or Sibelius the score itself may well be a solution - there is software like SmartScore or PhotoScore that is able convert it to their formats. Of course, they cost money, so your friend may not be willing to go down that path ...

There's the rub. Money.

Looking at a similar but simpler problem, converting mathematical
expressions between LaTeX and MS Word. The typical cost appears
to be around $100; double that if you want to go both ways.
That means you pay as much for one conversion mode as the entire
MS Office Suite.

Comparing: LP is free (both senses, like LaTeX); Sibelius/Finale
cost about $600. So the going rate would appear to be about $600
for conversion of a subset of functionality.

Cheers,
David.

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

tisimst
In reply to this post by Jan-Peter Voigt
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Jan-Peter Voigt [via Lilypond] <[hidden email]> wrote:
just to summarize what I was talking about recently at the Music Encoding Conference in Tours. Yes, I am working on an API to provide a generalized plug for modules that are able to write MusicXML, MEI, Humdrum and others. I am not familiar with ABC, but maybe one can work on it *when* I can present some tidy code.
In fact for my presentation I created to modules to write Humdrum and MusicXML. But those are not complete right now - no ties, now slurs and a lot more missing. But it writes the notes correctly and I can open the generated MusicXML with MuseScore. I will present it to the community after tidying up the code.
My vision is to have an API that also allows Import modules. That way LilyPond can be a chain-link in a multiformat toolchain. Others can make use of its great typesetting and LilyPond-users (like me) can make use of the great tools outside Lilys world.

This is very exciting news! Progress is progress and I know many people who will welcome even a fraction of conversion functionality. Can't wait to see what you've been working on!

Best,
Abraham 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Paul Morris

On 05/25/2017 10:51 AM, tisimst wrote:


This is very exciting news! Progress is progress and I know many people who will welcome even a fraction of conversion functionality. Can't wait to see what you've been working on!

+1 
-Paul

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Export to ?????

Nathan Ho-2
In reply to this post by Don Gingrich
On 2017-05-25 00:45, Don Gingrich wrote:

> I've been looking and looking and I cannot
> find any useful references to export file
> formats from LilyPond.
>
> Now, I will agree that LilyPond's PDF output
> is very good looking and is actually my preferred
> sheet music, But the sad reality it that there are
> people who do exist who use tools other than
> LilyPond, and that occasionally it becomes
> necessary to exchange files with these poor
> benighted souls. ;-)

hi don,

if you'll forgive me for self-promotion, i'm a contributor to an open
source project (https://ncodamusic.org/) which aims to support
translation between a number of music formats, including lilypond import
and export.

it's early in development, so definitely not helpful to you in its
current state. but i know you're not the only person interested in this,
so i just wanted to put this on the radar.


nathan

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Loading...