Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

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Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Jon-97
Hi there guys,

I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the music in
concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the right key for the
B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert pitch, so this
becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.

The problem I'm having is that Lilypond is choosing to use double flats for a
number of particular notes when it prints out the B-flat part. For example, if
I write a G or an F in the concert part (which is in E-major) these get written
out as B-doubleflat and A-doubleflat respectively, in the B-flat instrument
part, instead of as A-natural and G-natural, which would be easier to read in
my opinion.

Is there a way to get around this problem - maybe to stop Lilypond from using
doubleflats? Annoyingly, if I re-write my G as F-doublesharp it gets printed
out as an A-natural when transposed - but I don't want to have to write my g as
fss all the time as that will make working out what i've written a whole lot
harder!

Below is some code which should cause this problem for you too!

Besides this I would just like to say: great work - I'm really impressed with
Lilypond. Thanks! Jon



\include "english.ly"

sopranosax = \relative c'' {
  \set Staff.instrumentName = "Soprano Sax"
  \clef treble
  \key e \major
  \time 4/4

  g4 f4
}

\score {
  \new Staff = "Soprano sax" { \transpose e gf \sopranosax}  

  \layout {
    \context {
      \Score
    }
  }
}



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Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

v.villenave
2007/8/1, Jon <[hidden email]>:
> Hi there guys,
>
> I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the music in
> concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the right key for the
> B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert pitch, so this
> becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.

> Is there a way to get around this problem - maybe to stop Lilypond from using
> doubleflats? Annoyingly, if I re-write my G as F-doublesharp it gets printed
> out as an A-natural when transposed - but I don't want to have to write my g as
> fss all the time as that will make working out what i've written a whole lot
> harder!

Why don't you use    \transpose e fs
instead of                 \transpose e gf ?

Hope this helps!
Valentin


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RE: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Jon-97
I have tried that but it transposes to F-sharp (6 sharps) and I'd
rather it was in G-flat (6 flats). It doesn't put any
double-accidentals when transposed to F# though, its true...

If there's no work-around I guess I'll have to go the F# route, but
this ought to be do-able somehow?

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Valentin Villenave [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 01 August 2007 11:36
To: Jon
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

2007/8/1, Jon <[hidden email]>:
> Hi there guys,
>
> I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the
music in
> concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the right
key for the
> B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert
pitch, so this
> becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.

> Is there a way to get around this problem - maybe to stop Lilypond
from using
> doubleflats? Annoyingly, if I re-write my G as F-doublesharp it gets
printed
> out as an A-natural when transposed - but I don't want to have to
write my g as
> fss all the time as that will make working out what i've written a
whole lot
> harder!

Why don't you use    \transpose e fs
instead of                 \transpose e gf ?

Hope this helps!
Valentin




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Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Ole Schmidt
In reply to this post by Jon-97
see also:

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=136


maybe that helps

best

ole


Am 01.08.2007 um 12:20 schrieb Jon:

> Hi there guys,
>
> I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the  
> music in
> concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the right  
> key for the
> B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert  
> pitch, so this
> becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.
>
> The problem I'm having is that Lilypond is choosing to use double  
> flats for a
> number of particular notes when it prints out the B-flat part. For  
> example, if
> I write a G or an F in the concert part (which is in E-major) these  
> get written
> out as B-doubleflat and A-doubleflat respectively, in the B-flat  
> instrument
> part, instead of as A-natural and G-natural, which would be easier  
> to read in
> my opinion.
>
> Is there a way to get around this problem - maybe to stop Lilypond  
> from using
> doubleflats? Annoyingly, if I re-write my G as F-doublesharp it  
> gets printed
> out as an A-natural when transposed - but I don't want to have to  
> write my g as
> fss all the time as that will make working out what i've written a  
> whole lot
> harder!
>
> Below is some code which should cause this problem for you too!
>
> Besides this I would just like to say: great work - I'm really  
> impressed with
> Lilypond. Thanks! Jon
>
>
>
> \include "english.ly"
>
> sopranosax = \relative c'' {
>   \set Staff.instrumentName = "Soprano Sax"
>   \clef treble
>   \key e \major
>   \time 4/4
>
>   g4 f4
> }
>
> \score {
>   \new Staff = "Soprano sax" { \transpose e gf \sopranosax}
>
>   \layout {
>     \context {
>       \Score
>     }
>   }
> }
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user



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RE: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Jon-97
Ah that does look quite useful, thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: Ole Schmidt [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 01 August 2007 13:32
To: Jon; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

see also:

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=136


maybe that helps

best

ole


Am 01.08.2007 um 12:20 schrieb Jon:

> Hi there guys,
>
> I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the  
> music in
> concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the right

> key for the
> B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert  
> pitch, so this
> becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.
>
> The problem I'm having is that Lilypond is choosing to use double  
> flats for a
> number of particular notes when it prints out the B-flat part. For  
> example, if
> I write a G or an F in the concert part (which is in E-major) these

> get written
> out as B-doubleflat and A-doubleflat respectively, in the B-flat  
> instrument
> part, instead of as A-natural and G-natural, which would be easier  
> to read in
> my opinion.
>
> Is there a way to get around this problem - maybe to stop Lilypond  
> from using
> doubleflats? Annoyingly, if I re-write my G as F-doublesharp it  
> gets printed
> out as an A-natural when transposed - but I don't want to have to  
> write my g as
> fss all the time as that will make working out what i've written a  
> whole lot
> harder!
>
> Below is some code which should cause this problem for you too!
>
> Besides this I would just like to say: great work - I'm really  
> impressed with
> Lilypond. Thanks! Jon
>
>
>
> \include "english.ly"
>
> sopranosax = \relative c'' {
>   \set Staff.instrumentName = "Soprano Sax"
>   \clef treble
>   \key e \major
>   \time 4/4
>
>   g4 f4
> }
>
> \score {
>   \new Staff = "Soprano sax" { \transpose e gf \sopranosax}
>
>   \layout {
>     \context {
>       \Score
>     }
>   }
> }
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user





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Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Cameron Horsburgh
In reply to this post by Jon-97
On Wed, Aug 01, 2007 at 10:20:53AM +0000, Jon wrote:

> Hi there guys,
>
> I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the music in
> concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the right key for the
> B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert pitch, so this
> becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.
>
> The problem I'm having is that Lilypond is choosing to use double flats for a
> number of particular notes when it prints out the B-flat part. For example, if
> I write a G or an F in the concert part (which is in E-major) these get written
> out as B-doubleflat and A-doubleflat respectively, in the B-flat instrument
> part, instead of as A-natural and G-natural, which would be easier to read in
> my opinion.
>

The other option would be to transpose the piece into F-sharp major, which
would (I presume) get rid of the double accidentals and be more
(technically) correct.

However, there seems to be a (rather complex) way to do it: have a look at
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/source/input/lsr/scheme/lily-0934c4d641.ly
for clues (I haven't had a good look at this, but I think it does whayt
you're after.)

Hope this helps!

--

=============================================
Cameron Horsburgh

=============================================



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Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Toine Schreurs-2
The transposition of the instrument does not depend on the key of the
music. On a B-flat sax a written C sounds as a B-flat. That's all the information
you need.

So use \transpose bf c' {the music}

And indeed, key E-major goes to F-sharp-major. The original transposition
from E-major to G-flat-major implies an A-sharp saxophone.

Toine Schreurs

> > I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the music in
> > concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the right key for the
> > B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert pitch, so this
> > becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.
> >
> > The problem I'm having is that Lilypond is choosing to use double flats for a
> > number of particular notes when it prints out the B-flat part. For example, if
> > I write a G or an F in the concert part (which is in E-major) these get written
> > out as B-doubleflat and A-doubleflat respectively, in the B-flat instrument
> > part, instead of as A-natural and G-natural, which would be easier to read in
> > my opinion.
> >
>
> The other option would be to transpose the piece into F-sharp major, which
> would (I presume) get rid of the double accidentals and be more
> (technically) correct.


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RE: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Jon-97
Yep sorry guys, I wrongly assumed that the sax player in our quartet
would prefer reading 6-flats than 6-sharps (I would, but as a concert
pitch player I'm used to reading things written in flat keys so that
the horns aren't in tough keys). But I've just spoken to him and he's
happier with the sharps... Thanks for your help!

-----Original Message-----
From: Toine Schreurs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 01 August 2007 14:59
To: Cameron Horsburgh
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

The transposition of the instrument does not depend on the key of the
music. On a B-flat sax a written C sounds as a B-flat. That's all the
information
you need.

So use \transpose bf c' {the music}

And indeed, key E-major goes to F-sharp-major. The original
transposition
from E-major to G-flat-major implies an A-sharp saxophone.

Toine Schreurs
> > I've been writing out a part for B-flat sax. I've written out the
music in
> > concert pitch and so am using \transpose to display it in the
right key for the
> > B-flat sax. The part I'm writing is in E-major when in concert
pitch, so this
> > becomes G-flat-major when transposed for the B-flat instrument.
> >
> > The problem I'm having is that Lilypond is choosing to use double
flats for a
> > number of particular notes when it prints out the B-flat part. For
example, if
> > I write a G or an F in the concert part (which is in E-major)
these get written
> > out as B-doubleflat and A-doubleflat respectively, in the B-flat
instrument
> > part, instead of as A-natural and G-natural, which would be easier
to read in
> > my opinion.
> >
>
> The other option would be to transpose the piece into F-sharp major,
which
> would (I presume) get rid of the double accidentals and be more
> (technically) correct.




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Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Mark Knoop-4
In reply to this post by Toine Schreurs-2
Toine Schreurs wrote:
> The transposition of the instrument does not depend on the key of the
>  music. On a B-flat sax a written C sounds as a B-flat. That's all
> the information you need.
>
> So use \transpose bf c' {the music}
>
> And indeed, key E-major goes to F-sharp-major. The original
> transposition from E-major to G-flat-major implies an A-sharp
> saxophone.

At the root of this is the possibility that there should/could be two
modes of transpose.

1) "Tonal" transpose: which would use double{flats,sharps} when
appropriate. e.g. (as in this case) a G in E major is a flattened third,
so when transposed to G-flat major *should* become a B-doubleflat.

2) "Atonal" transpose: which would favour the simplest spelling. e.g. G
transposed up a tone would *always* become A.

--
Mark Knoop


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Re: Double-flats used by Lilypond after transpose

Mats Bengtsson-4
Mark Knoop wrote:

>Toine Schreurs wrote:
>  
>
>>The transposition of the instrument does not depend on the key of the
>> music. On a B-flat sax a written C sounds as a B-flat. That's all
>>the information you need.
>>
>>So use \transpose bf c' {the music}
>>
>>And indeed, key E-major goes to F-sharp-major. The original
>>transposition from E-major to G-flat-major implies an A-sharp
>>saxophone.
>>    
>>
>
>At the root of this is the possibility that there should/could be two
>modes of transpose.
>
>1) "Tonal" transpose: which would use double{flats,sharps} when
>appropriate. e.g. (as in this case) a G in E major is a flattened third,
>so when transposed to G-flat major *should* become a B-doubleflat.
>
>2) "Atonal" transpose: which would favour the simplest spelling. e.g. G
>transposed up a tone would *always* become A.
>
>  
>
I hope you have realized that a previous response in this
thread already has pointed to

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=136

which provides the second of your alternatives.

   /Mats



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