Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

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Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Jogchum Reitsma
Hi,

The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not
on the staff, but above it.

Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing
"time 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65


regards, Jogchum Reitsma


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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

David Kastrup
Jogchum Reitsma <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi,
>
> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states
> a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted
> not on the staff, but above it.
>
> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing
> "time 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65

Well, you can fudge your own stuff, like

\new Staff
{
  \tweak stencil #(lambda (grob)
                   (grob-interpret-markup grob
                    #{ \markup \vcenter \fraction \number "4" \note { \breve } #UP #}))
  \time 8/1
  c'\breve \breve \breve \breve
}

Basically, provide your own visuals.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Simon Albrecht-2
In reply to this post by Jogchum Reitsma
To elaborate a little on David’s response:

On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states
> a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted
> not on the staff, but above it.

This would be replicated in LilyPond by \omit Staff.TimeSignature and
creating custom markups for the time signatures, either as \mark or
inside a special context (for example using the method in
http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=1010).

> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing
> "time 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65

This is because a duration isn’t the same as any number to LilyPond;
specifically the \time command expects to be given a fraction (of
numbers) (that is then internally represented as a Scheme pair).
Technically, this would be 4/(1/2) in your case, but that isn’t
supported by Lily, so you have to use 8/1. I have to say, it would be
kind of cool to write

\version "2.19.82"
{ \time #'(4 . 1/2) \breve \breve \longa }

but that’s not how it works ;-)

Best, Simon

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Simon Albrecht-2
In reply to this post by Jogchum Reitsma
On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states
> a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted
> not on the staff, but above it.

PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright
worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.
Best, Simon

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

David Kastrup
Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
>> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana
>> states a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that
>> is noted not on the staff, but above it.
>
> PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright
> worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.

Uh, no?  _Redistributing_ typesettings of it may be, but what kind of
material you create for yourself from legally acquired copies is usually
entirely your own business in typical jurisdictions.

It's certainly not the typesetting that is problematic.  It just may
have less uses (without getting appropriate license) than one would wish
for.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Andrew Bernard
In reply to this post by Simon Albrecht-2
Hi Simon,

That's not illegal at all anywhere in the world just so that other list members don't get the wrong impression. Selling multiple copies, i.e., making a derivative work, without permission or licence from the copyright holder would be. Similar to photocopying of complete works for study purposes.

a


On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 23:40, Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> wrote:

PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright
worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.


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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Simon Albrecht-2
Hi Andrew and David,

of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far – sorry.
A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you cannot give
it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless whether parts of that
may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever you want in your house,
so to speak.

Best, Simon

On 05.09.2018 16:13, Andrew Bernard wrote:

> Hi Simon,
>
> That's not illegal at all anywhere in the world just so that other
> list members don't get the wrong impression. Selling multiple copies,
> i.e., making a derivative work, without permission or licence from the
> copyright holder would be. Similar to photocopying of complete works
> for study purposes.
>
> a
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 23:40, Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under
>     copyright
>     worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Jogchum Reitsma
2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
> time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
> the staff, but above it.
>
> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing "time
> 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65
>
>
> regards, Jogchum Reitsma
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
My own coding here:
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763

HTH,
  Harm

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Simon Albrecht-2

> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far – sorry.
> A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you cannot give it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless whether parts of that may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever you want in your house, so to speak.

In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking merely to take it down.



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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

David Kastrup
Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> writes:

>> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far –
>> sorry.  A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you
>> cannot give it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless
>> whether parts of that may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever
>> you want in your house, so to speak.
>
> In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
> it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
> merely to take it down.

That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease&Desist
notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
estimated) is the non-nice way.

It depends on jurisdictions, public relations, the size and workload of
the respective legal department which of those options (and/or others)
will be chosen.  Also on whether the legal department is budgeted in a
manner where it is supposed to contribute to its salaries.

In short: it's not a good plan to rely on any particular kind of
response.

--
David Kastrup

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Jogchum Reitsma
In reply to this post by Simon Albrecht-2
Op 05-09-18 om 15:40 schreef Simon Albrecht:
> On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
>> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana
>> states a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that
>> is noted not on the staff, but above it.
>
> PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright
> worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.
> Best, Simon
Hi Simon,

Thanks for your warning, but I'm not going to redistribute it in
whatever form, it is pure for personal use, so I think there's no
problem. As you yourself and others already stated in previous anwers to
your remark.
But your attention is appreciated!

regrads, Jogchum




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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Jogchum Reitsma
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
Op 06-09-18 om 09:43 schreef Thomas Morley:

> 2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
>> time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
>> the staff, but above it.
>>
>> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing "time
>> 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65
>>
>>
>> regards, Jogchum Reitsma
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
> My own coding here:
> https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763
>
> HTH,
>    Harm
>
Hi Thomas,

Seems magnificent! Thanks a lot!

regards, Jogchum




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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by David Kastrup

> On 6 Sep 2018, at 10:49, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>>> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far –
>>> sorry.  A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you
>>> cannot give it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless
>>> whether parts of that may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever
>>> you want in your house, so to speak.
>>
>> In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
>> it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
>> merely to take it down.
>
> That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease&Desist
> notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
> statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
> estimated) is the non-nice way.
>
> It depends on jurisdictions, public relations, the size and workload of
> the respective legal department which of those options (and/or others)
> will be chosen.  Also on whether the legal department is budgeted in a
> manner where it is supposed to contribute to its salaries.

In the US, some copyright holders don't know much about it except that it is something that helps them making money, so in the absence of legal checks, they can set their legal department to write something forceful, like a Disease and Cease to Exist letter.



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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Simon Albrecht-2
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
On 06.09.2018 10:49, David Kastrup wrote:
>> In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
>> it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
>> merely to take it down.
> That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease&Desist
> notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
> statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
> estimated) is the non-nice way.

Which reminds me that this very piece, namely the opening chorus ‘O
Fortuna’, is said to form a major/considerable portion of Schott’s
revenue, and that they have been keen to squeeze that out: It is told
that, when Michael Jackson used it in a concert tour without permission,
they waited till the concert tour was over and then sued, thus
maximising the amount they got.

Best, Simon

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Jogchum Reitsma
That is the lesser form. Sorry, the joke markup dropped out.


> On 6 Sep 2018, at 16:25, shane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Cease and desist. And yes copyright here is a farce at this point. But don't get afoul of the owners of the copyright.
>
>
>
> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Hans Åberg <[hidden email]>
> Date: 9/6/18 8:51 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: David Kastrup <[hidden email]>
> Cc: lilypond-user Mailinglist <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana
>
>
> > On 6 Sep 2018, at 10:49, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hans Åberg <[hidden email]> writes:
> >
> >>> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far –
> >>> sorry.  A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you
> >>> cannot give it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless
> >>> whether parts of that may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever
> >>> you want in your house, so to speak.
> >>
> >> In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
> >> it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
> >> merely to take it down.
> >
> > That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease&Desist
> > notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
> > statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
> > estimated) is the non-nice way.
> >
> > It depends on jurisdictions, public relations, the size and workload of
> > the respective legal department which of those options (and/or others)
> > will be chosen.  Also on whether the legal department is budgeted in a
> > manner where it is supposed to contribute to its salaries.
>
> In the US, some copyright holders don't know much about it except that it is something that helps them making money, so in the absence of legal checks, they can set their legal department to write something forceful, like a Disease and Cease to Exist letter.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Jogchum Reitsma
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
Op 06-09-18 om 09:43 schreef Thomas Morley:

> 2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
>> time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
>> the staff, but above it.
>>
>> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing "time
>> 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65
>>
>>
>> regards, Jogchum Reitsma
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
> My own coding here:
> https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763
>
> HTH,
>    Harm
>
Hi Thomas,

I downloaded the code you referred to in your answer above, and it works
like a charm, thanks!
But there are still a few changes that would be nice to have in it. Or,
also quite possible, they are already there, but I don't know how to use it.

If I want for example a 3/4 bar, I write

   \time ##f 3/4

and the result is fine. But when issuing this in a 4-part vocal piece, I
have to repeat that for every voice, and the 3/4 symbol is printed above
each staff. Repeating the entry is of course no problem, but the fact
that the result is printed above each staff gives a somewhat messy output.

I'm for now not able to alter the code myself, but is it possible to
avoid this effect?

regards, Jogchum


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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Thomas Morley-2
Am Mo., 8. Okt. 2018 um 12:28 Uhr schrieb Jogchum Reitsma <[hidden email]>:

>
> Op 06-09-18 om 09:43 schreef Thomas Morley:
> > 2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma <[hidden email]>:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
> >> time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
> >> the staff, but above it.
> >>
> >> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing "time
> >> 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65
> >>
> >>
> >> regards, Jogchum Reitsma
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> lilypond-user mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> > This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
> > My own coding here:
> > https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763
> >
> > HTH,
> >    Harm
> >
> Hi Thomas,
>
> I downloaded the code you referred to in your answer above, and it works
> like a charm, thanks!
> But there are still a few changes that would be nice to have in it. Or,
> also quite possible, they are already there, but I don't know how to use it.
>
> If I want for example a 3/4 bar, I write
>
>    \time ##f 3/4
>
> and the result is fine. But when issuing this in a 4-part vocal piece, I
> have to repeat that for every voice, and the 3/4 symbol is printed above
> each staff. Repeating the entry is of course no problem, but the fact
> that the result is printed above each staff gives a somewhat messy output.
>
> I'm for now not able to alter the code myself, but is it possible to
> avoid this effect?
>
> regards, Jogchum
>

Well, if you change 'Staff' to 'Score' in the line
    \temporary \override Staff.TimeSignature.stencil =
then the new stencil is always printed without the need to repeat it
in every Staff.

Though, I have my doubts that's really what you want.
I would recommend not to change the code but to \omit the
TimeSignature in every Staff, where you don't want it:
<<
  \new Staff
    {
      r2 r
      \time ##f 3/4
      r4 r r
    }
  \new Staff \with { \omit TimeSignature }
    {
      r2 r
      r4 r r
    }
>>

If you omit the Y-offset-override from the original example the
TimeSignature is printed in Staff as usual.
Though, Orff prints it above, afaik.
With my original coding there is a lot of space below the TimeSignature.
It could be removed or at least reduced if the dimensions of the
TimeSignature-stencil would be adjusted.
But I simply don't know how changes of TimeSignatures are dealed with
in this edition of the Carmina Burana.
Can you link to some online-images of line-breaking TimeSignatures?


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

Jogchum Reitsma
Hi Harm

(Hmm,  or Thomas?)

Op 08-10-18 om 23:52 schreef Thomas Morley:

> Am Mo., 8. Okt. 2018 um 12:28 Uhr schrieb Jogchum Reitsma <[hidden email]>:
>> <...>
> Well, if you change 'Staff' to 'Score' in the line
>      \temporary \override Staff.TimeSignature.stencil =
> then the new stencil is always printed without the need to repeat it
> in every Staff.
>
> Though, I have my doubts that's really what you want.
> I would recommend not to change the code but to \omit the
> TimeSignature in every Staff, where you don't want it:
> <<
>    \new Staff
>      {
>        r2 r
>        \time ##f 3/4
>        r4 r r
>      }
>    \new Staff \with { \omit TimeSignature }
>      {
>        r2 r
>        r4 r r
>      }
This second suggestion does the trick: no need to repeat the code for
each staff, and it it printed only above the upper (soprano, in this
case) staff. Thanks a lot!
> If you omit the Y-offset-override from the original example the
> TimeSignature is printed in Staff as usual.
> Though, Orff prints it above, afaik.
> With my original coding there is a lot of space below the TimeSignature.
> It could be removed or at least reduced if the dimensions of the
> TimeSignature-stencil would be adjusted.
> But I simply don't know how changes of TimeSignatures are dealed with
> in this edition of the Carmina Burana.
> Can you link to some online-images of line-breaking TimeSignatures?


I had figured that out already, thanks. Orff, and also Daan Manneke in
his "Psaume 121" print the time signatures above the staff,  Manneke
printing only the numerator, not the quarter note as denominator.

>
>
> Cheers,
>    Harm
>
regards, Jogchum


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