Clef "treble_8"

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
17 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Clef "treble_8"

Anthony Rushforth
Hello,

I'm writing music for classical guitar, so I use the key " \clef "treble_8""

I would like to make the "8" symbol disappear (although I know it's the correct way to represent it)

image.png


I guess it can be done with a ClefModifier but I don't know how to use it.

Anthony
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

David Kastrup
Anthony Rushforth <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I'm writing music for classical guitar, so I use the key " \clef "treble_8""
>
> I would like to make the "8" symbol disappear (although I know it's the
> correct way to represent it)
>
> [image: image.png]
>
>
> I guess it can be done with a ClefModifier but I don't know how to use it.
You mean, without a ClefModifier.


\new Staff \with { \omit ClefModifier }
{
  \clef "treble_8"
  <e, a, e>1
}


--
David Kastrup
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Anthony Rushforth
"\omit ClefModifier" is what I want, thank you

I have tried Amy's suggestion too, but the notes don't change, I'm doing something wrong :
\version "2.18.2"
\score
{
    \new Staff {
       %\clef "treble_8"
        \transposition c''
       b
 }
}

Now I want also the time signature "C" to disappear... I've read the doc, but don't see how. Is there a "\omit" ?
Thank you for your responses

Anthony


Le lun. 10 févr. 2020 à 14:46, David Kastrup <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Anthony Rushforth <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I'm writing music for classical guitar, so I use the key " \clef "treble_8""
>
> I would like to make the "8" symbol disappear (although I know it's the
> correct way to represent it)
>
> [image: image.png]
>
>
> I guess it can be done with a ClefModifier but I don't know how to use it.

You mean, without a ClefModifier.



--
David Kastrup
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Noeck
Hi Anthony,

>         \transposition c''

What you are looking for here is \transpose:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/changing-multiple-pitches#transpose

> Now I want also the time signature "C" to disappear... I've read the doc
> <http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/typesetting-mensural-music#mensural-time-signatures>,
> but don't see how.

\omit was introduced in 2.18:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/changes/index.html

Documentation:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/visibility-of-objects

> Is there a "\omit" ?

you can basically \omit anything as soon as you know what the object it
is called:

\omit TimeSignature

If you don’t know what to look for to find the name, this page could help:
https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_visualindex.pdf

HTH,
Joram

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Michael Käppler-2
Am 10.02.2020 um 16:56 schrieb Noeck:
>
> If you don’t know what to look for to find the name, this page could help:
> https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_visualindex.pdf
Wow, this is pretty cool! Why isn't this part of the official docs?

Cheers,
Michael
>
> HTH,
> Joram
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Karlin High
On 2/10/2020 12:53 PM, Michael Käppler wrote:
> Why isn't this part of the official docs?

That was my reaction, too. Plus, there's at least one more work like it:

<https://joramberger.de/files/LilypondSpacing.pdf>

I'm usually not a very demanding LilyPond user. I have trouble staying
sharp on all the different spacing and padding settings, due to not
using them much. As a result, I've learned to like that Spacing map a lot.
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Noeck
Hi Michael and Karlin,

thank you for your positive reaction. There are 3 files¹:

- a cheat sheet: https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_en.pdf
- “visual index”: https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_visualindex.pdf
- spacing overview: https://joramberger.de/files/LilypondSpacing.pdf

The cheat sheet is also available in other languages (and as SVG)²:

https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_de.pdf
https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_fr.pdf
https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_it.pdf
https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_en.svg
https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_de.svg
https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_fr.svg
https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_it.svg


>> Why isn't this part of the official docs?

I once tried to get them in an appropriate place in the official
documentation. But they were not accepted. For the cheat sheet, main
objections were:

- not source code (even though SVG is an open and text based format)
- needs updates for new versions (well, those basic things did not
  change for at least 7 years now and even if they did…)
- does not fit into the texinfo documentation creation process (ok)

The case of the spacing overview is similar. The visual index is created
from a LilyPond source code. If I (or someone) finds a way to create a
clickable SVG file from it, one could include it into HTML and make it
blend much better into the/a documentation website.

Cheers,
Joram


¹: A gentle introduction to overrides will follow at some point.
²: A 2.20 version will be put online as soon as 2.20 is out.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Michael Käppler-2
Am 10.02.2020 um 22:09 schrieb Noeck:
>
> The case of the spacing overview is similar. The visual index is created
> from a LilyPond source code. If I (or someone) finds a way to create a
> clickable SVG file from it, one could include it into HTML and make it
> blend much better into the/a documentation website.
Would you share the source code for the visual index?

Cheers,
Michael
>
> Cheers,
> Joram
>
>
> ¹: A gentle introduction to overrides will follow at some point.
> ²: A 2.20 version will be put online as soon as 2.20 is out.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Hans Åberg-2
In reply to this post by Michael Käppler-2

> On 10 Feb 2020, at 19:53, Michael Käppler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Am 10.02.2020 um 16:56 schrieb Noeck:
>>
>> If you don’t know what to look for to find the name, this page could help:
>> https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_visualindex.pdf
> Wow, this is pretty cool! Why isn't this part of the official docs?

Since the guitar is a transposing instrument, sounding one octave lower than written, I tend to think one should be able to either enter the written pitches with the MIDI sounding one octave lower, or enter the pitches as sounded, written one octave higher.

The LilyPond \transposition does the former, but the second might be useful if changing the instrument.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Werner LEMBERG
In reply to this post by Noeck

> thank you for your positive reaction. There are 3 files¹:
>
> - a cheat sheet: https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_en.pdf
> - “visual index”: https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_visualindex.pdf
> - spacing overview: https://joramberger.de/files/LilypondSpacing.pdf

All of them are *very* helpful!

> I once tried to get them in an appropriate place in the official
> documentation.  But they were not accepted.  For the cheat sheet,
> main objections were:
>
> - not source code (even though SVG is an open and text based format)
> - needs updates for new versions (well, those basic things did not
>   change for at least 7 years now and even if they did…)
> - does not fit into the texinfo documentation creation process (ok)

Maybe this can be re-evaluated...  An alternative is to add links to
to the documentation.


    Werner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

David Kastrup
Werner LEMBERG <[hidden email]> writes:

>> thank you for your positive reaction. There are 3 files¹:
>>
>> - a cheat sheet: https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_en.pdf
>> - “visual index”: https://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_visualindex.pdf
>> - spacing overview: https://joramberger.de/files/LilypondSpacing.pdf
>
> All of them are *very* helpful!
>
>> I once tried to get them in an appropriate place in the official
>> documentation.  But they were not accepted.  For the cheat sheet,
>> main objections were:
>>
>> - not source code (even though SVG is an open and text based format)

Is there a source?  Or is it hand-written SVG?  If we are trying to
follow the spirit of the GPL, source is defined as "preferred form for
modification".  For a cobbled-together version, that is tricky to
define, but we would not want to make it harder than necessary to come
up with updated versions.

>> - needs updates for new versions (well, those basic things did not
>>   change for at least 7 years now and even if they did…)
>> - does not fit into the texinfo documentation creation process (ok)
>
> Maybe this can be re-evaluated...  An alternative is to add links to
> to the documentation.

Or from the web page, but then people might have a harder time finding
it.  We have some diagrams with arrows in our web presence if I am not
mistaken.  They must have been created in some kind of manner.  Of
course something fitting well into the Texinfo creation process would be
nice since we have a lot of output formats for our documentation.

--
David Kastrup

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Clef "treble_8"

Noeck
In reply to this post by Michael Käppler-2
Dear Michael,

Am 10.02.20 um 22:14 schrieb Michael Käppler:
> Would you share the source code for the visual index?

Yes, sure. I setup a small repository for it:
https://github.com/joram-berger/visualindex/blob/master/visualindex.ly

The code is not beautiful. It's 700 lines. I just got it to a stage
where it roughly did what I wanted. The positioning is not always
optimal and there are some open issues, some of which I mentioned in a
comment. But here it is. Comments and improvements are welcome.

Best,
Joram

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Cheat sheets and LilyPond documentation [was Re: Clef "treble_8"]

Noeck
In reply to this post by David Kastrup
Hi David,

> Is there a source?  Or is it hand-written SVG?  If we are trying to
> follow the spirit of the GPL, source is defined as "preferred form for
> modification".  For a cobbled-together version, that is tricky to
> define, but we would not want to make it harder than necessary to come
> up with updated versions.

The SVG is the source in the sense "preferred form of modification" – at
least preferred by me :). It is created with Inkscape. I guess it could
be done in LilyPond or TeX or sth else but probably with a similar
amount of complexity (except some text replacement perhaps).
Personally, I would update it via Inkscape (and export to PDF
additionally). The cheat sheet is 8000 lines as SVG (with the line
breaks Inkscape introduces, but you get a feeling). The spacing sheet
3600 lines.

>> Maybe this can be re-evaluated...  An alternative is to add links to
>> to the documentation.
>
> Or from the web page, but then people might have a harder time finding
> it.  We have some diagrams with arrows in our web presence if I am not
> mistaken.  They must have been created in some kind of manner.  Of
> course something fitting well into the Texinfo creation process would be
> nice since we have a lot of output formats for our documentation.

You mean this? http://lilypond.org/text-input.html Well, yes, there
seems to be a place for that. I don’t know the Texinfo stuff enough to
tell if there is a way. For the ly code of the visual index perhaps.

Btw, I appreciate your friendly reaction very much.

Best,
Joram


¹: Inkscape: free vector graphics editor https://inkscape.org

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cheat sheets and LilyPond documentation [was Re: Clef "treble_8"]

David Kastrup
Noeck <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> Is there a source?  Or is it hand-written SVG?  If we are trying to
>> follow the spirit of the GPL, source is defined as "preferred form for
>> modification".  For a cobbled-together version, that is tricky to
>> define, but we would not want to make it harder than necessary to come
>> up with updated versions.
>
> The SVG is the source in the sense "preferred form of modification" – at
> least preferred by me :). It is created with Inkscape. I guess it could
> be done in LilyPond or TeX or sth else but probably with a similar
> amount of complexity (except some text replacement perhaps).
> Personally, I would update it via Inkscape (and export to PDF
> additionally). The cheat sheet is 8000 lines as SVG (with the line
> breaks Inkscape introduces, but you get a feeling). The spacing sheet
> 3600 lines.

Is SVG the file format Inkscape saves in?  Or is it only an export
format for it?  Either way it does not sound like the "provide the
source" vibe should be hard to meet in order to inspire followup work.

>>> Maybe this can be re-evaluated...  An alternative is to add links to
>>> to the documentation.
>>
>> Or from the web page, but then people might have a harder time finding
>> it.  We have some diagrams with arrows in our web presence if I am not
>> mistaken.  They must have been created in some kind of manner.  Of
>> course something fitting well into the Texinfo creation process would be
>> nice since we have a lot of output formats for our documentation.
>
> You mean this? http://lilypond.org/text-input.html Well, yes, there
> seems to be a place for that. I don’t know the Texinfo stuff enough to
> tell if there is a way. For the ly code of the visual index perhaps.
>
> Btw, I appreciate your friendly reaction very much.

At some point of time I have to reread the collected devastating
dissings of dreadlord David.  This is not the first helpful project
these days that has mentioned getting discouraged by the initial
reaction.

--
David Kastrup
My replies have a tendency to cause friction.  To help mitigating
damage, feel free to forward problematic posts to me adding a subject
like "timeout 1d" (for a suggested timeout of 1 day) or "offensive".

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cheat sheets and LilyPond documentation [was Re: Clef "treble_8"]

Noeck
Hi David,

> Is SVG the file format Inkscape saves in?

Yes, SVG is the Inkscape file format. Inkscape adds some Inkscape
specific name spaces but within the spec of SVG. To quote the website¹:

        Perfectly compliant SVG format file generation and editing


> Or is it only an export format for it?

No.

> Either way it does not sound like the "provide the
> source" vibe should be hard to meet in order to inspire followup work.

I am not sure I understand. You mean it is close to what you want as a
source format?

> At some point of time I have to reread the collected devastating
> dissings of dreadlord David.  This is not the first helpful project
> these days that has mentioned getting discouraged by the initial
> reaction.

I’ve read a lot of mails the last days. That’s why I wanted to give some
positive feedback. I honestly appreciate it.

Best,
Joram


¹: https://inkscape.org/about/features

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cheat sheets and LilyPond documentation [was Re: Clef "treble_8"]

David Kastrup
Noeck <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> Is SVG the file format Inkscape saves in?
>
> Yes, SVG is the Inkscape file format. Inkscape adds some Inkscape
> specific name spaces but within the spec of SVG. To quote the website¹:
>
> Perfectly compliant SVG format file generation and editing
>
>
>> Or is it only an export format for it?
>
> No.
>
>> Either way it does not sound like the "provide the
>> source" vibe should be hard to meet in order to inspire followup work.
>
> I am not sure I understand. You mean it is close to what you want as a
> source format?

It _is_ the source format if I understand you correctly.  Not merely
close.  So the principal question is how to get it into our
documentation in a useful manner.  The text-editing thing might provide
some pointers.

>> At some point of time I have to reread the collected devastating
>> dissings of dreadlord David.  This is not the first helpful project
>> these days that has mentioned getting discouraged by the initial
>> reaction.
>
> I’ve read a lot of mails the last days. That’s why I wanted to give
> some positive feedback. I honestly appreciate it.

Thanks.  It turns out that speaking up only when you have some
improvement to suggest amounts to the maxim "if you cannot say anything
bad, don't say anything at all" which somewhat surprisingly does not
result in overwhelming popularity.  Though it appears to work for
becoming president.

At any rate, it seems I apparently need to add some redundancy or I'll
never get anywhere without losing all company on the way.

--
David Kastrup
My replies have a tendency to cause friction.  To help mitigating
damage, feel free to forward problematic posts to me adding a subject
like "timeout 1d" (for a suggested timeout of 1 day) or "offensive".

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cheat sheets and LilyPond documentation

Henning Hraban Ramm-3

> Am 2020-02-11 um 23:11 schrieb David Kastrup <[hidden email]>:
>
> It _is_ the source format if I understand you correctly.

Yes, Inkscape’s SVG is "rich" but completely valid and displayable in browsers.

Inkscape can import/export other formats, but SVG is its native format.

It can also use SVGZ (compressed SVG) to save some disk space, but with a text (XML) format like SVG we’re on the save side.

There are already tools to e.g. replace text in SVG (might become handy for translations), but I guess manual intervention would be necessary to keep the layout.

> At any rate, it seems I apparently need to add some redundancy or I'll
> never get anywhere without losing all company on the way.

There, there.
David, your input is valuable and appreciated. (And I’m sorry you couldn’t survive on working for LilyPond!)

In nerd & geek zones like this we are (or at least should be) used to and often can’t survive without autistic characters and their not always cordial interactions. (Being on the spectrum myself.)

All the best,
Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
https://www.fiee.net