Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

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Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Thomas Morley-2
I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.
See my comment on the tracker:
https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5154/#1933

https://codereview.appspot.com/325070043/

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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Richard Shann-2
On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:09 -0700, [hidden email] wrote:
> I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.

It solves the problem of single bass figures and isolated accidentals on
notes of duration longer than whole note as the comment says.

You give an example of multiple bass figures on a note, I'm not sure
what you would wish to see for that case, but what LilyPond does in that
case is quite readable - I can't suggest any improvement for that case.
I wouldn't want to see the whole group of figures centered on the note
centre since they would seem to start before the note - I'm not sure
what the 19th c academic style might be...

Richard


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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On 2017/07/15 07:25:37, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:09 -0700, mailto:[hidden email]
wrote:
> > I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.

> You give an example of multiple bass figures on a note, I'm not sure
> what you would wish to see for that case,

In
<<
   \relative c' { c1 c1 }
   \figures { <6+>2 <6+>2 <6+>1 }

I would expect same aligning for first and second BassFigure related to
the note.



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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On 2017/07/15 07:40:01, thomasmorley651 wrote:
> On 2017/07/15 07:25:37, http://richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:09 -0700, mailto:[hidden email]
wrote:
> > > I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.

> > You give an example of multiple bass figures on a note, I'm not sure
> > what you would wish to see for that case,

> In
> <<
>    \relative c' { c1 c1 }
>    \figures { <6+>2 <6+>2 <6+>1 }
> >>
> I would expect same aligning for first and second BassFigure related
to the
> note.

Aargh, should read:
I would expect same aligning for first and third BassFigure

https://codereview.appspot.com/325070043/

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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Richard Shann-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:40 -0700, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2017/07/15 07:25:37, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:09 -0700, mailto:[hidden email]
> wrote:
> > > I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.
>
> > You give an example of multiple bass figures on a note, I'm not sure
> > what you would wish to see for that case,
>
> In
> <<
>    \relative c' { c1 c1 }
>    \figures { <6+>2 <6+>2 <6+>1 }
>
> I would expect same aligning for first and second BassFigure related to
> the note.
(understood: first and second *group* of bass figures)

That would be ok, although when you have multiple figures on a note
allowing a bit more space for them can be good sometimes. You could
always move the whole group along by inserting a short duration note
with no figure in the bass figures if there was a particular case where
this seemed obtrusive (hacky of course).

So I think you could validly object that you didn't like them being
treated differently. But that wouldn't justify sticking with the
horrible effect you see when there is a single figure/lone accidental.

Richard





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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

dak
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On 2017/07/15 07:51:11, thomasmorley651 wrote:
> On 2017/07/15 07:40:01, thomasmorley651 wrote:
> >
> > In
> > <<
> >   \relative c' { c1 c1 }
> >   \figures { <6+>2 <6+>2 <6+>1 }
> > >>
> > I would expect same aligning for first and second BassFigure related
to the
> > note.

> Aargh, should read:
> I would expect same aligning for first and third BassFigure

I think it quite unusual to have a figure without a note.  But the other
way round (note without figure) is very common and leads to the same
problem of the length of the figure being different from the length of
the note it purportedly aligns to.

https://codereview.appspot.com/325070043/

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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Richard Shann-2
In reply to this post by Richard Shann-2
On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 08:51 +0100, Richard Shann wrote:

> On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:40 -0700, [hidden email] wrote:
> > On 2017/07/15 07:25:37, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:09 -0700, mailto:[hidden email]
> > wrote:
> > > > I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.
> >
> > > You give an example of multiple bass figures on a note, I'm not
> sure
> > > what you would wish to see for that case,
> >
> > In
> > <<
> >    \relative c' { c1 c1 }
> >    \figures { <6+>2 <6+>2 <6+>1 }
> >
> > I would expect same aligning for first and second BassFigure related
> to
> > the note.
> (understood: first and second *group* of bass figures)
>
> That would be ok, although when you have multiple figures on a note
> allowing a bit more space for them can be good sometimes. You could
> always move the whole group along by inserting a short duration note
> with no figure in the bass figures if there was a particular case
> where
> this seemed obtrusive (hacky of course).
>
> So I think you could validly object that you didn't like them being
> treated differently.
Ha! I think I was being over-generous to your case here :)
consider

<<
   \relative c' { c1 c2 }
   \figures { <_+>2 <6+>2  <_+>4 <4>4}

 >>

In the current LilyPond the two groups of figures are aligned
differently. So, my patch constitutes an improvement to the current
situation, even though it doesn't fix this case, (which, as I said, is
not really a worry - it's quite difficult to spot).

Richard






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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On 2017/07/15 08:06:41, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:

> So I think you could validly object that you didn't like them being
> treated differently.

If you look at the following, namely the colored BassFigures

cbf = \once \override BassFigure.color = #red
<<
   \relative c' { c1 c8 d e f g f e d c1 c1 }
   \figures { <_!>2 <_!>2 \cbf <_!>1 <_!>2 <_!>2 \cbf <_!>1 }


You'll see your patch improves the second colored BassFigure, but the
first one is turned worse.

> But that wouldn't justify sticking with the
> horrible effect you see when there is a single figure/lone accidental.


Indeed. Hence my suggestion to code a callback looking at the related
NoteColumn.



https://codereview.appspot.com/325070043/

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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Richard Shann-2
On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 01:50 -0700, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2017/07/15 08:06:41, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
>
> > So I think you could validly object that you didn't like them being
> > treated differently.
>
> If you look at the following, namely the colored BassFigures
>
> cbf = \once \override BassFigure.color = #red
> <<
>    \relative c' { c1 c8 d e f g f e d c1 c1 }
>    \figures { <_!>2 <_!>2 \cbf <_!>1 <_!>2 <_!>2 \cbf <_!>1 }
>
>
> You'll see your patch improves the second colored BassFigure, but the
> first one is turned worse.

Ah, yes I see. If you create a single figure of a duration to cover a
whole series of shorter duration notes you run into trouble. A better
approach to the problem would be needed to avoid you having to re-code
the bass figure duration to match the note it applies to.

Richard



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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On 2017/07/15 08:55:43, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 08:51 +0100, Richard Shann wrote:
> > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:40 -0700, mailto:[hidden email]
wrote:
> > > On 2017/07/15 07:25:37, http://richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:09 -0700,
mailto:[hidden email]

> > > wrote:
> > > > > I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.
> > >
> > > > You give an example of multiple bass figures on a note, I'm not
> > sure
> > > > what you would wish to see for that case,
> > >
> > > In
> > > <<
> > >    \relative c' { c1 c1 }
> > >    \figures { <6+>2 <6+>2 <6+>1 }
> > >
> > > I would expect same aligning for first and second BassFigure
related

> > to
> > > the note.
> > (understood: first and second *group* of bass figures)
> >
> > That would be ok, although when you have multiple figures on a note
> > allowing a bit more space for them can be good sometimes. You could
> > always move the whole group along by inserting a short duration note
> > with no figure in the bass figures if there was a particular case
> > where
> > this seemed obtrusive (hacky of course).
> >
> > So I think you could validly object that you didn't like them being
> > treated differently.
> Ha! I think I was being over-generous to your case here :)
> consider

> <<
>     \relative c' { c1 c2 }
>     \figures { <_+>2 <6+>2  <_+>4 <4>4}

>   >>

> In the current LilyPond the two groups of figures are aligned
> differently.

As a debugging-helper I coded a visualization.tool:

\layout {
   \context {
     \FiguredBass
     \override BassFigure.after-line-breaking =
       #(lambda (grob)
         (let ((line
                 (ly:make-stencil
                   (ly:stencil-expr (make-filled-box-stencil '(0 . 0) '(0
. 10)))
                   '(0 . 0)
                   '(0 . 0))))
         (format #t "\nX-extent:\t~a"
           (interval-length (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)))
         (ly:grob-set-property! grob 'stencil
           (box-stencil
             (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
               (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
                 line Y RIGHT (ly:text-interface::print grob) 0)
               X RIGHT line 0)
           0 0))))
   }
}

After applying it to your example I'm not sure what you mean. I don't
see a significant difference.


https://codereview.appspot.com/325070043/

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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On 2017/07/15 09:03:30, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 01:50 -0700, mailto:[hidden email]
wrote:
> > On 2017/07/15 08:06:41, http://richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> >
> > > So I think you could validly object that you didn't like them
being

> > > treated differently.
> >
> > If you look at the following, namely the colored BassFigures
> >
> > cbf = \once \override BassFigure.color = #red
> > <<
> >    \relative c' { c1 c8 d e f g f e d c1 c1 }
> >    \figures { <_!>2 <_!>2 \cbf <_!>1 <_!>2 <_!>2 \cbf <_!>1 }
> >
> >
> > You'll see your patch improves the second colored BassFigure, but
the
> > first one is turned worse.

> Ah, yes I see. If you create a single figure of a duration to cover a
> whole series of shorter duration notes you run into trouble. A better
> approach to the problem would be needed to avoid you having to re-code
> the bass figure duration to match the note it applies to.

> Richard



If you try
\override BassFigure.X-offset =
#ly:self-alignment-interface::centered-on-x-parent
you'll see improvements in some cases (others are worse).
Therefore I think ly:self-alignment-interface::centered-on-x-parent is
not the correct tool, but something similiar could do the trick.


https://codereview.appspot.com/325070043/

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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Richard Shann-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 02:09 -0700, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2017/07/15 08:55:43, richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 08:51 +0100, Richard Shann wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:40 -0700, mailto:[hidden email]
> wrote:
> > > > On 2017/07/15 07:25:37, http://richard_rshann.plus.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 00:09 -0700,
> mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I'm afraid this patch does not fix the problem as wished.
> > > >
> > > > > You give an example of multiple bass figures on a note, I'm not
> > > sure
> > > > > what you would wish to see for that case,
> > > >
> > > > In
> > > > <<
> > > >    \relative c' { c1 c1 }
> > > >    \figures { <6+>2 <6+>2 <6+>1 }
> > > >
> > > > I would expect same aligning for first and second BassFigure
> related
> > > to
> > > > the note.
> > > (understood: first and second *group* of bass figures)
> > >
> > > That would be ok, although when you have multiple figures on a note
> > > allowing a bit more space for them can be good sometimes. You could
> > > always move the whole group along by inserting a short duration note
> > > with no figure in the bass figures if there was a particular case
> > > where
> > > this seemed obtrusive (hacky of course).
> > >
> > > So I think you could validly object that you didn't like them being
> > > treated differently.
> > Ha! I think I was being over-generous to your case here :)
> > consider
>
> > <<
> >     \relative c' { c1 c2 }
> >     \figures { <_+>2 <6+>2  <_+>4 <4>4}
>
> >   >>
>
> > In the current LilyPond the two groups of figures are aligned
> > differently.
>
> As a debugging-helper I coded a visualization.tool:
>
> \layout {
>    \context {
>      \FiguredBass
>      \override BassFigure.after-line-breaking =
>        #(lambda (grob)
>          (let ((line
>                  (ly:make-stencil
>                    (ly:stencil-expr (make-filled-box-stencil '(0 . 0) '(0
> . 10)))
>                    '(0 . 0)
>                    '(0 . 0))))
>          (format #t "\nX-extent:\t~a"
>            (interval-length (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)))
>          (ly:grob-set-property! grob 'stencil
>            (box-stencil
>              (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
>                (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
>                  line Y RIGHT (ly:text-interface::print grob) 0)
>                X RIGHT line 0)
>            0 0))))
>    }
> }
>
> After applying it to your example I'm not sure what you mean. I don't
> see a significant difference.

Your visualization tool reveals the problem. They are aligned the same:
the left hand edge of the figure is aligned with the left hand edge of
the note. However, because the whole note is wider visual impression is
that the figure appears centered on the note for the shorter duration
notes but to the left for the whole note.
So the problem is perhaps that the choice of alignment point is
unfortunate.

Richard



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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Thomas Morley-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morley-2
On 2017/07/15 09:13:08, thomasmorley651 wrote:

> If you try
> \override BassFigure.X-offset =
> #ly:self-alignment-interface::centered-on-x-parent
> you'll see improvements in some cases (others are worse).
> Therefore I think ly:self-alignment-interface::centered-on-x-parent is
not the
> correct tool, but something similiar could do the trick.

https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5154/#ce35
May be a starting point/proof of concept.



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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Richard Shann-2
On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 16:15 -0700, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2017/07/15 09:13:08, thomasmorley651 wrote:
>
> > If you try
> > \override BassFigure.X-offset =
> > #ly:self-alignment-interface::centered-on-x-parent
> > you'll see improvements in some cases (others are worse).
> > Therefore I think ly:self-alignment-interface::centered-on-x-parent is
> not the
> > correct tool, but something similiar could do the trick.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5154/#ce35
> May be a starting point/proof of concept.
You seem to have things under control with this code. I think
\centerOnNoteColumn
should be the default, I've been scouring the "Golden Age" of engraving
that LilyPond aspires to for examples and I noticed that the failure to
center isolated figures on whole-notes only becomes an eyesore when the
figures are in a small font size, at larger font sizes the figure fills
out the width of the note more. This can be seen, e.g., in Augener's
edition of the Corelli chamber sonatas. I've attached an example from

Denkmäler deutscher Tonkunst, Erste
Folge; Bd.18
Leipzig: Breitkopf und Härtel, 1904.
Plate D.D.T. XVIII.

which shows them centering the figure under a whole note in the first
bar shown and then aligning the first of two figures with the right edge
of the whole note in the second bar. At this font size it is quite
subtle though.

Richard


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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Richard Shann-2
On Sun, 2017-07-16 at 10:09 +0100, Richard Shann wrote:
> which shows them centering the figure under a whole note

well, actually, *over* a whole note inthis case. The fact that the whole
note is so far away from the figure (because of its pitch) makes the
effect still more subtle, it becomes more obvious if the figure is right
above/below the note.

Richard



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Re: Centering bass figures on whole notes and longer (issue 325070043 by pkx166h@gmail.com)

Lukas-Fabian Moser
In reply to this post by dak
dak wrote
I think it quite unusual to have a figure without a note.
Quite to the contrary: Both for voice-leading indications (e.g. quick resolution of suspensions) and point d'orgue situations, it's very common to have multiple figures to the same note. For example, see the last two bars of the Introitus to Mozart's Requiem.

There might even be cases where there a figure is the first thing happening in a bass line:

<<
  { r8 c16 d e8 e }
  \figures { <2 4 7>4 <6> }
>>

I don't know a "real" example of this kind off the top of my head, but it would definitely be a meaningful continuo setting.

- Lukas
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