2 questions concerning skips and dynamics

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2 questions concerning skips and dynamics

Thomas Ruedas
Hi,
I came back to my attempts with the staff-centered dynamics in a piano
score, and while the example I was pointed to in an earlier thread
essentially works, I am still confused about two issues which I don't
understand from the docs either. A test example (v.2.6.3) is at the
bottom.
- How do skips really work, especially in connection with a
dynamics-only system? In normal staves with proper notes they used to
work as I expected, but not in the dynamics-only staff. For instance,
I found some example with an expression like  s\f , which is
apparently necessary to make the \f work; but how "wide" is the s? In
my test case, it seems to have neither width 0 nor the width of the
last nonzero skip.
Or take the first expressions in the test case,
s\mf s4. \setTextCresc s\<
Does the first s have zero width here? And why do I have to put s4. to
get the cresc. at the beginning of the next bar? Is the \mf assigned
a width?
I also replaced the s by \skip where possible, but the results were
the same. The intended result of the test case is:
mf at the beginning
cresc. from bar 2, 1st eighth to b.3, 3rd eighth
f at b.3, 3rd eighth
decresc. directly after it for a period of one quarter
- The other question: in my test case, I can adjust the vertical
position of dynamics text like mf or f and of the hairpins, but the
text-version cresc. is too low. How do I adjust that?
I hope someone can help me out of this confusion.
Thomas

\version "2.6.3"

i = \context Staff {
        \context Voice = "i"
        \voiceOne
\clef treble \time 2/4 \repeat unfold 5 { d'8 fis' e' cis' }
}

dynamics = {
s\mf s4. \setTextCresc s\< s2 s4\f s\> s4\!
}

iii = \context Staff {
        \context Voice = "iii"
        \voiceTwo
\clef bass \time 2/4 \repeat unfold 5 { d4 a }
}

     \score {
       \context PianoStaff <<
         \context Staff = "upper" << \i >>
         \context Dynamics = dynamics \dynamics
         \context Staff= "lower" << \iii >>
       >>
       \layout {
         \context {
           \type "Engraver_group_engraver"
           \name Dynamics
           \alias Voice % So that \cresc works, for example.
           \consists "Output_property_engraver"

           \override VerticalAxisGroup #'minimum-Y-extent = #'(-1 . 1)

           \consists "Script_engraver"
           \consists "Dynamic_engraver"
           \consists "Text_engraver"

           \override TextScript #'font-size = #2
           \override TextScript #'font-shape = #'italic
           \override DynamicText #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 2.5)
           \override Hairpin #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 1.5)

           \consists "Skip_event_swallow_translator"

           \consists "Axis_group_engraver"
         }
         \context {
           \PianoStaff
           \accepts Dynamics
           \override VerticalAlignment #'forced-distance = #7
         }
       }
     }

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Re: 2 questions concerning skips and dynamics

Mats Bengtsson-6
The duration of the skips is handled exactly as the duration of ordinary
notes. If you insert some bar checks, you will see that the durations
are probably not what you want:

dynamics = {
s\mf s4. | \setTextCresc s\< | s2 | s4\f s\> s4\!
}

Since the last duration specified above the dynamics is the d'8, the
duration
of the first s is also an 8th note.

You should note that the full template is a fairly ugly hack. There
have been several discussions on the mailing list proposing different
additional tweaks and modifications. I have also proposed a completely
different approach to solve the problem, see
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2005-08/msg00130.html

   /Mats

Thomas Ruedas wrote:

>Hi,
>I came back to my attempts with the staff-centered dynamics in a piano
>score, and while the example I was pointed to in an earlier thread
>essentially works, I am still confused about two issues which I don't
>understand from the docs either. A test example (v.2.6.3) is at the
>bottom.
>- How do skips really work, especially in connection with a
>dynamics-only system? In normal staves with proper notes they used to
>work as I expected, but not in the dynamics-only staff. For instance,
>I found some example with an expression like  s\f , which is
>apparently necessary to make the \f work; but how "wide" is the s? In
>my test case, it seems to have neither width 0 nor the width of the
>last nonzero skip.
>Or take the first expressions in the test case,
>s\mf s4. \setTextCresc s\<
>Does the first s have zero width here? And why do I have to put s4. to
>get the cresc. at the beginning of the next bar? Is the \mf assigned
>a width?
>I also replaced the s by \skip where possible, but the results were
>the same. The intended result of the test case is:
>mf at the beginning
>cresc. from bar 2, 1st eighth to b.3, 3rd eighth
>f at b.3, 3rd eighth
>decresc. directly after it for a period of one quarter
>- The other question: in my test case, I can adjust the vertical
>position of dynamics text like mf or f and of the hairpins, but the
>text-version cresc. is too low. How do I adjust that?
>I hope someone can help me out of this confusion.
>Thomas
>
>\version "2.6.3"
>
>i = \context Staff {
>        \context Voice = "i"
>        \voiceOne
>\clef treble \time 2/4 \repeat unfold 5 { d'8 fis' e' cis' }
>}
>
>dynamics = {
>s\mf s4. \setTextCresc s\< s2 s4\f s\> s4\!
>}
>
>iii = \context Staff {
>        \context Voice = "iii"
>        \voiceTwo
>\clef bass \time 2/4 \repeat unfold 5 { d4 a }
>}
>
>     \score {
>       \context PianoStaff <<
>         \context Staff = "upper" << \i >>
>         \context Dynamics = dynamics \dynamics
>         \context Staff= "lower" << \iii >>
>       >>
>       \layout {
>         \context {
>           \type "Engraver_group_engraver"
>           \name Dynamics
>           \alias Voice % So that \cresc works, for example.
>           \consists "Output_property_engraver"
>
>           \override VerticalAxisGroup #'minimum-Y-extent = #'(-1 . 1)
>
>           \consists "Script_engraver"
>           \consists "Dynamic_engraver"
>           \consists "Text_engraver"
>
>           \override TextScript #'font-size = #2
>           \override TextScript #'font-shape = #'italic
>           \override DynamicText #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 2.5)
>           \override Hairpin #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 1.5)
>
>           \consists "Skip_event_swallow_translator"
>
>           \consists "Axis_group_engraver"
>         }
>         \context {
>           \PianoStaff
>           \accepts Dynamics
>           \override VerticalAlignment #'forced-distance = #7
>         }
>       }
>     }
>
>  
>

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
        Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================



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Re: 2 questions concerning skips and dynamics

Thomas Ruedas
On Wednesday 14 December 2005 12:47, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> The duration of the skips is handled exactly as the duration of
> ordinary notes. If you insert some bar checks, you will see that
> the durations are probably not what you want:
Ok, thanks for confirming that.
> Since the last duration specified above the dynamics is the d'8,
> the duration of the first s is also an 8th note.
I don't think so: when I change the initial s into e.g. s2, the mf is
still placed at the beginning, but the subsequent stuff is moved to
the right. If things worked the way you say, this would imply that
the automatic propagation of durations has a scope larger than the
staff. I can't imagine that the developers would implement such a
design flaw.
In fact, I didn't find a way to move the mf further to the right.
> You should note that the full template is a fairly ugly hack. There
[...]
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2005-08/msg00130.htm
Thanks again for the pointer, I'll try it out as an alternative later.
However, it seems to me that the other problem I had, namely the
ill-positioned text-version crescendo is not solved by that either.
Is there a solution to that or is it a bug?
Sorry if these questions are quite basic, but I am still new to
lilypond and with little time, I make only slow progress.
Thomas
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Re: 2 questions concerning skips and dynamics

Mats Bengtsson-6
I would recommend you to first typeset your dynamics in a normal
stave attached to normal notes and make sure that you understand
exactly how they are positioned relative to the notes. Then, you can
simply replace the notes by skips and use them in the Dynamics
context instead. A good starting point, corresponding to what you
now have in your dynamics is:

\relative c'{
\time 2/4
c8\mf c4. \setTextCresc c\< c2 c4\f c\> c4\!
}

The misplaced text version crescendo is just one of several indications
that the template is a quick hack that would need polishing or an
complete redesign to work fully. It's really strange that nobody has
taken the time to revise it, since it apparently is used fairly often.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if the text version crescendi is
handled better by the alternative approach I referenced below.

  /Mats


Thomas Ruedas wrote:

>On Wednesday 14 December 2005 12:47, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
>  
>
>>The duration of the skips is handled exactly as the duration of
>>ordinary notes. If you insert some bar checks, you will see that
>>the durations are probably not what you want:
>>    
>>
>Ok, thanks for confirming that.
>  
>
>>Since the last duration specified above the dynamics is the d'8,
>>the duration of the first s is also an 8th note.
>>    
>>
>I don't think so: when I change the initial s into e.g. s2, the mf is
>still placed at the beginning, but the subsequent stuff is moved to
>the right. If things worked the way you say, this would imply that
>the automatic propagation of durations has a scope larger than the
>staff. I can't imagine that the developers would implement such a
>design flaw.
>In fact, I didn't find a way to move the mf further to the right.
>  
>
>>You should note that the full template is a fairly ugly hack. There
>>    
>>
>[...]
>  
>
>>http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2005-08/msg00130.htm
>>    
>>
>Thanks again for the pointer, I'll try it out as an alternative later.
>However, it seems to me that the other problem I had, namely the
>ill-positioned text-version crescendo is not solved by that either.
>Is there a solution to that or is it a bug?
>Sorry if these questions are quite basic, but I am still new to
>lilypond and with little time, I make only slow progress.
>Thomas
>  
>

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        Signals, Sensors and Systems
        Royal Institute of Technology
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
        Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
        Email: [hidden email]
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================



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Re: 2 questions concerning skips and dynamics

Thomas Ruedas
On Thursday 15 December 2005 10:50, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> The misplaced text version crescendo is just one of several
> indications that the template is a quick hack that would need
> polishing or an complete redesign to work fully. It's really
> strange that nobody has taken the time to revise it, since it
> apparently is used fairly often. However, I wouldn't be surprised
> if the text version crescendi is handled better by the alternative
> approach I referenced below.
On a preliminary try, it works indeed better, the text-version
(de)crescendi are now in line with the rest of the dynamics.
Thanks again,
Thomas
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